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New UK Species of snake?

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churchfield62 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 12:05pm
tried to catch her during night in my bed.
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churchfield62 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote churchfield62 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2017 at 12:01pm
...and after 16m years cobras are back to europe.
(bite/15mm tooth gap)

all on twitter about naja nigricollis @kirchfeld62
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JamesB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JamesB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 8:47am
Brilliant, thank you very much. Amazing how confusing the news articles managed to be, given how short most of them were! Much for me to learn but will enjoy doing so.
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Iowarth View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iowarth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 6:17pm
Hi James

Perfectly reasonable query which arises largely because many of the articles which exploded through the media when this was announced were very poorly and, at best, confusingly written (if not totally inaccurately).

Firstly, the UK/western European (except Iberia) grass snake (Natrix helvetica - maybe) generally has a yellow collar but occasional individuals or isolated populations may lack it (or appear to lack it due to it being very pale). This is probably most pronounced in Natrix helvetica cetti. This tends to be reversed with Natrix natrix spp. It is NOT however definitive.

All the best
Chris
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JamesB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 1:18pm
Hi, apologies for bringing this back up. Could anyone answer a quick query re identifying Natrix Helvetica Helvetica vs Natrix Natrix? I've read numerous articles that state a more olive colour and blacker markings on Helvetica, as well as there being no yellow collar present. Is this always the case?

It may be a trick of the mind but I seem to recall seeing far more with yellow collar than without & certainly my local snakes all have one present. Are these therefore Natrix Natrix? Bad picture below and thanks!


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Suzi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2017 at 12:57pm
Just an observation...I know a place with grass snakes with no water anywhere in the vicinity. No ponds or streams and the nearest being maybe half a mile away across a busy road. This grass snake site is heathland quite high up.
Suz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caleb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2017 at 9:35am
The 2016 paper is available here:

The new paper suggests that the grass snake species group is similar to other groups like fire-bellied/yellow-bellied toads (Bombina) and crested newts (Triturus cristatus, carnifex etc) which have narrow hybrid zones where the species' distributions meet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PondDragon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by Robert V Robert V wrote:

what I'm a little confused about in this latest article is its resemblance to am article which appeared in the Linnean journal in 2016, but which said that 300 museum samples and 85 Grass Snakes had been tested. Please see below - sorry no link available!!! And are you really trying to suggest that during all that time no hybridisation occurred? Really. Was it worth all the fanfare??

The 2016 article was separating N. astreptophora from all the rest, the recent article is separating N. helvetica and N. natrix using the same methodology. From a very superficial reading of the 2016 article there were a very small number of hybrids identified along the narrow zone of overlap, but the vast bulk of the population was pure one or the other. So it seems that the hybrids tended to be unsuccessful over the long term, keeping the species separate. The same was true for hybrids between N. helvetica and N. natrix in the 2017 paper, but not for hybrids between N. natrix natrix and N. n. persa which occurred over a wide zone of intermediates indicating that these are not separate species.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iowarth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 5:47pm
LOL - no point sueing them Rob - speaking as a lumper rather than splitter it won't stop new species being invented overnight just because they have found (at last!) scientific justification for some sub-species.
Chris
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Robert V View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert V Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 5:43pm
...And I know for a fact that Helvetica breeds with astreptophora because.... izer seen it wit my own eyes boss.... so who should I sue???
RobV
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