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JaySteel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JaySteel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2012 at 4:10pm
I'm assuming that no dead reptiles were found at the clearance site so I would have thought there's no chance of any legal action being taken against those responsible. Is there nothing we can do collectively to voice our outrage at these ever-increasing atrocities?

Jason
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GemmaJF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2012 at 5:31pm
There were dead reptiles at Allethorpe, it didn't make any difference though. Apparently if you cry at meetings afterwards it doesn't matter if you commit offences under the WCA. Frankly I've ended up much like Rob, I feel like what is the point? On the one hand I've worked in consultancy where developers are made to pay thousands to mitigate for reptiles and amphibians, on the other I've spent last 30 years watching conservation organisations trash reptile habitat at key sites.

There is only one answer, a high profile prosecution of a conservation organisation under the Wildlife and  Countryside Act. Until then we will just have the usual political maneuvering from all parties and the destruction will carry on. In fact I already think the impact of so many of these clearance schemes is now irreversible. 


Edited by GemmaJF - 17 May 2012 at 5:32pm
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AGILIS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AGILIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2012 at 8:42pm
Well it said it all on a rspb notice board I photgraphed at Hyde heath at Stoborough with huge fines fines for interfering with the habitat and fauna ,but it did not stop the rspb cretins trashing their own site with bulldozers.keith
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Chris d View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2012 at 8:44pm
I agree with you Gemma, after having time to think it through after Allerthorpe was "destroyed" I thought that prosecution wasn't the correct line of action to take as I thought, niavely, that things may change and a lesson may be learned and passed on. Now however, after seeing the upsetting scene happening again ( I'm sure that it won't be the last)it makes my blood boil and I believe that the ones responsible should be taken to justice, it has to be stopped.
I've been to Allerthorpe quiet frequently and nothing has changed. I'm finding it hard to find anything especially "common" lizards in or around the cleared areas. I'm convinced that  a vast amount of reptiles and amphibians have been killed. The cover that used to be there which provided refuge just  isn't there anymore. I used to find the usual amphibians underneath and quite a few times GCN's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2012 at 10:38pm
Funny isn't it that we, the unlicenced, aren't allowed to so much as touch a GCN or smooth snake and yet it won't be us responsible for their decline.
Suz
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GemmaJF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2012 at 1:35am
It's a good point Suzi, we have on the one hand the public and developers scared to so much as touch some of the animals, (I'm not licensed for natterjacks, smooth snakes or sand lizards so for years have never actually gone out to look for them, which is actually a little bizarre really as I might actually be quite good at finding them lol) on the other hand we have those charged with protecting them killing them by the dozen with apparent complete immunity to the laws which are suppose to protect them. 

I know Paul Edgar isn't exactly having an easy time, but I would welcome his comments on this latest case of blatant destruction of habitat of supposedly protected animals. 

Should those of us in consultancy point our clients to these examples - I can hardly see why they should fear prosecution under the WCA for trashing sites when conservation organisations do it all the time with complete immunity. 

What is Natural England's actual stance on this? Whenever I have spoken to local teams they have made statements such as they trust these organisations to know what they are doing or that NE has actually sanctioned the work. When then will it ever end? Never by the sounds of it if NE sanction the works or more likely 'turn a blind eye' to oil the wheels of 'conservation'.





Edited by GemmaJF - 18 May 2012 at 1:36am
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AGILIS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AGILIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2012 at 6:45am
The only conservation going on is the conservation of nice cushy jobs that the usual crowd of self opinionated jobs worth cretins and failed politicians,who have wormed their way into the likes of well paid hi profile jobs within the likes off   English nature and Archaeology funded by us tax payers who they then dictate and treat us as a collective bunch of idiots. Keith

Edited by AGILIS - 18 May 2012 at 6:53am
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GemmaJF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2012 at 1:33pm
Sadly Keith, that is very true in my experience.
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Madfossa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Madfossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 12:43pm
Hi all,

sorry for being out of this discussion for awhile, pc problems and work commitments, but all fixed now!

I was out at R Plain last weekend as part of my "getting to know" the area and it is an abomination, it looks like a moonscape devoid of any scrub or herbage, a very 1 dimensional habitat.

The work is very similar to what has taken place at S Plain in EF, only in S Plain they left the log piles and did not chip all the brush, this has provided a great 3 dimensional habitat where grasses and areas of brambles have provided a thriving habitat where i have recorded  numerous Z vs and Grass snakes as well as smooth and palmate newts.

I met up with Martin Whitfield (Volunteer Development Officer) and Andy Froud (Ecologist) on the 11th May, this came about as I had applied to be a volunteer surveyor back in December last year and they had only just got back to me last month.

Now I want to point out I am not being an apologist for Epp For or City of London, I  am just reporting what they told me !! If you have any comments on what they said please point out if you disagree and give me ammunition :)

The main points of the meeting were as follows:
1. Only 2 Ecologists for the whole of Epping Forest.(1 is part time)

2. Lack of recent records for reptiles in the area.

3. Lack of manpower to input/collate records.

4. Lack of knowledge about reptile conservation/habitat creation

5. Forest rangers spend most of their time people managing.

6. They are very willing to take ANY advise on reptile conservation.

7. They are aware of  obligations to reptile conservation in order to keep SSSI status.

8. Over grazing of Epping Forest.

That's about it really :)
 So what can we take away from this?

Firstly if all the above is true and they want to retain their SSSI status, i believe they will listen to constructive criticism and advice. Primarily we cannot undo what has happened to Rushey Plain but we can stop it happening again.
Their point about recent records of reptiles in E F, on the face of it, seems to echo the problems of sharing records that exists throughout our world. One could summise that if they have no records for a particular area they carry out the work in ignorance....though i'm sure their SSSI status must depend on them doing something positive for reps and amphibs!!.

I have volunteered to help survey EF, just by visual survey, i have collated and shared all my records with ARG and i'm in the process of putting together records for Epping Forest, so they'll be less ignorant of where the reptiles are!! and they wouldnt be able to use it as a defence in future!!!

If anyone would like to give me their own Epping Forest records, i can make sure that they are sent to CoL. I also volunteered to input the records onto their system as they pointed out they have very little time to put any records they do have onto their system, its all so crazy...how do they do anything???
I am trying to be positive in light of the "napalming" of Rushey Plain. So I/we can make sure this doesnt happen again.We cant change/undo what has happened. Concentrate on the solution not the problem.
Maybe i'm being naive??? but we CAN point out their mistakes..to them.. and not just on here.


I dont know enough about bringing a prosecution or the obligations of a SSSI but would be interested to hear peoples views.
I think the main message to take away is "Please share your records"... 
of course this opens up a huge can of worms, Where to share them???? there are so many different places to record sightings, I record everything on ARG but there is also(for my area) GIGL, County recorder, NBN,CLARE, EFC, CoL,  EWT and probably more..its all so confusing !!!
We really need one central record pool. I know there is money to be made from records, but i would rather see ARG benefit from my records.

Ian





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Madfossa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Madfossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 12:47pm
I forgot to mention i saw 4 grasssnakes in an area close to R PL last weekend :)

I also forgot to mention if anyone wants contact details of CoL just pm me for my email address

Edited by Madfossa - 20 May 2012 at 12:49pm
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