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North Wales Aesculapians

Printed From: Reptiles and Amphibians of the UK
Category: Alien & Naturalised species of the UK
Forum Name: Naturalised
Forum Description: Concerning non-indigenous species that are no threat to native fauna
URL: http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4438
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 10:30am
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Topic: North Wales Aesculapians
Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Subject: North Wales Aesculapians
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2013 at 12:13pm
Quick questions: how many people here have come to North Wales primarily to look for Aesculapian snakes in Colwyn Bay? There is some discussion about eradication, and I am just interested in the potential economic benefits of the species being here.

Thanks!

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Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/



Replies:
Posted By: will
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 6:30am
Hi Wolfgang, I certainly would if I didnt have some on my doorstep in London :)  In all seriousness, why would anyone have a crack at getting rid of these ones, which have been living out their lives eating rats in N Wales since before the Wildlife and Countryside Act back in the 1970s??  Oh, I can guess - could it be because they COULD feasibly be eradicated, and therefore a box could be ticked, rather than for any ecological justification... 


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 6:52am
Cynicism: the triumph of experience over hope

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 11:16am
LOL - in this case, I hope my cynicism is misplaced...


Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 12:00pm
I would definitely visit if i knew the site location, since i'm not far from it. However, my typical contribution to any local economy would be the purchase of a can of Red Bull (small), a packet of crisps (not the grab bag size) and maybe a tank (more likely half) of petrol if you're lucky.

Incidentally, is there any predicted population expansion or inter-species threat from the colony.  


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2013 at 3:56pm
No expansion or threat known. They have been living quietly in Colwyn Bay for the last 40 years. Even if they did spread, I don't see what damage they would cause - they eat primarily small rodents and shrews, and live in different habitats than native rodent-eating snakes. Moreover, being a Central European snake, they interact with the same species in their native range as they are likely to encounter in the UK, so I really don't see any potential for problems.

Unfortunately some people outside Wales do see them as a target for eradication, quite possibly for the reasons Will mentioned, and are trying to get this on the agenda.

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 11:02am
Just out of interest how do 'they' propose such an eradication scheme? It sounds like a highly specialised job to me; tracking down and killing a cryptic animal that exploits a food source that can't be cut off or contaminated with poisons, and an animal that presumably exists in protected habitats that can't be sterilized anyway, or is the population so localised that these are not issues? 

Sound nuts even contemplating this to me; a waste of time, life and  money! 


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 12:21pm
...but on the plus side, some beaurocrat somewhere can put a nice big tick in the eradication box.   While grey squirrels etc continue their inexorable progress across the UK (unless the resurgent pine martens get them, that is Approve)


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 12:43pm
Can 'they', as in those that propose eradication be identified?

I would welcome 'them' coming on the forum to explain why eradicating this species from the wild should even be considered. 

It should make an interesting discussion considering the considerable expertise on this thread and the point already raised that the snakes are very unlikely to pose any form of threat to native wildlife at all.


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 1:02pm
There are meetings coming up on this, so this would not be a good time to burn bridges. If there is no reasoning with them, then I will certainly flag their identity up here!

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 2:10pm
Understood Wolfgang, keep us informed.


Posted By: Richard2
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 3:17pm
Wolfgang,
 
I'm writing a book about British reptiles and amphibians - a mixture of literary nature writing, natural history and memoir. Would it be possible to talk to you in detail about these Aesculapians sometime?
 
Richard


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2013 at 6:56am
Sure thing - my email is w dot wuster at bangor dot ac dot uk

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2013 at 3:41pm
I have visited London for the sole purpose of photographing the Aesculapian Snake population there a couple of times now. I will visiting again this year at some point. I also plan a trip to photograph the Welsh Aesculapian Snakes at Colwyn Bay too and that would be my only reason for making the long journey to Wales.

Jason


Posted By: Richard2
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 12:32pm
Thank you. That's kind. I'll do that.
 
Richard


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 2:27pm
regarding the economic benefits of feral Aesculapian snakes, for the last five years the ZSL has had 80 quid from me so I can pop into the Zoo whenever I am able to watch the snakes there.  I guess that's 400 quid...  now, it's quite possible that I would have joined the Zoo anyway, but the lure of spotting free-range snakes was definitely a deal-maker, as far as I am concerned...


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2013 at 6:35am
...not to mention the cost of all those expensive sandwiches I seem to end up buying there, too...


Posted By: John Newton
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2013 at 7:27pm
I have only just learned of these plans to eradicate the animals from WMZ.

I see these animals every year, and feel repulsed by the idea that some sad individual(s) feel themselves empowered to embark on such an eradication programme - which would not be difficult to achieve on this isolated and restricted population.
These animals have no observable impact on native species, and have lived there for a long time.
I can only hope that some form of defence can be raised, to ensure the continued survival of the animals, and that this will involve input from myself and other interested parties.

Very, very disgruntled admirer/supporter of the WMZ population - dont do this !!


-------------
John Newton

South Yorkshire ARG


Posted By: Mark_b
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2013 at 8:44pm
My understanding is that all non-native species in Wales are being reviewed, information compiled, etc. Please do correct me if I am wrong Wolfgang but there are no plans in the pipe line for aesculapians to be eradicated? As long as it can be proven that they aren't invasive / a threat, now or in the future, then nothing will happen. I know Wolfgang and Co will continue to monitor the population, so I wouldn't worry about this.

The only thing to be done is provide a sound scientific case, which I'm sure Wolfgang has under control. But if anyone has any information that may help do contact him.

John, if you have any records I'm sure Wolfgang would appreciate them in case they are in locations he doesn't know about.

-------------
http://www.wgarg.co.uk/">


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 7:59am
Mark,

I think the non-native species secretariat are hoping to get something done about them (there is an agenda point on an "eradication programme" at a forthcoming meeting), although I don't know if there are any concrete or specific plans. I know CCW don't consider this a priority so long as they are monitored and there is no evidence of current or future problems.

John, if you have any records from outside the boundaries of the zoo, I would certainly like to hear about them. We have a few records from gardens within 500 meters or so of the zoo, but nothing further.

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 9:20am

I have just found a thread elsewhere on the net in which there appears to be a serious attempt by some reptile keepers to gather momentum to capture the snakes, both in Wales and in London, ahead of any possible culling.  Hence I have posted this plea for calm for the time being; any concerted attempt to capture the animals (especially in London where the population is smaller and more localised) would only help in their eradication from the wild…

 

‘Hi, I have just stumbled on this thread and I would like to request that no-one tries to make the task of those who are pro-eradication easier by collecting animals (even for the best of reasons) until you are CERTAIN that eradication is going to happen.  I have been studying the London population in particular for five years and one thing is for sure - the population will go extinct if people collect even a few animals.  It's isolated and vulnerable to all manner of threats, and if only a few animals were to be taken into captivity this could tip the balance.  Consequently we would lose an intriguing and harmless (unless you are a Camden rat) addition to the reptile fauna of the UK.  And how ‘the authorities’ would love it if you were to do their work for them, by removing them from the wild (they don't care if the snakes are culled or taken into captivity, as long as the right box can be ticked in terms of removal).  By rendering the snakes extinct either in N Wales or London, useful data on population genetics and climate change would be lost which could help these snakes at the edge of their natural range as well.  So please, for the time being, leave them alone.  You can find out more about these two populations on the 'rauk forum' which I am sure many of you will already know.

Cheers

Will

Will Atkins
Chair of Trustees
London Essex and Hertfordshire Amphibian and Reptile Trust (LEHART)
charity number 1089466
www.lehart.org’



Posted By: Richard2
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 11:42am
Thanks. I can see that this is sensible and vital advice. But is there anyone we can write to in protest. Should we start a 'save the snakes' campaign? Or would that be premature? How far have these plans got, in Wales and London?
 
Richard


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 11:52am
Link to thread:

http://www.captivebredreptileforums.co.uk/fbh-federation-british-herpetologists/63723-aesculapian-snakes-eradication-update.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.captivebredreptileforums.co.uk/fbh-federation-british-herpetologists/63723-aesculapian-snakes-eradication-update.html


I'm sure we all support the FBH in lobbying to prevent the eradication. Though I totally support Will's call for calm. I'm with Richard, I just wish we could do more as individuals to be heard. Perhaps we could use RAUK in some way to achieve this? Any suggestions?



Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 2:37pm
There is a meeting coming up where this will be discussed, and which will hopefully reveal whether there is a real threat or whether it's just words.

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 3:37pm
I've added my support to your comments on the "captivebredreptileforum".
I hope all those who keep reptiles in captivity can also appreciate and support the conservation of reptiles in the wild too.

Jason


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 4:27pm

Thanks Jason – I’m assuming that since they are on a site called CAPTIVE bred reptile forum, they will not endorse taking animals from the wild...!Smile



Posted By: John Newton
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 7:50pm
Wolfgang

The vast majority of my records are associated with the sites that you are aware of within the zoo grounds, and coincident with locations studied by DD. Most visits reveal up to 5 or 6 animals (weather dependent), although it must be said that survey of adjacent woodland to the east of the zoo has never turned up anything. Talking to local residents in the immediate vicinity, they are aware of the animals, but do see odd individuals only very infrequently, so I would think that the bulk of the population remains contained within the zoo grounds.

From what I understand, there has only been one record of slow worm within the zoo, and I am not convinced that records of grass snake are reliable, and could easily be mistaken for juvenile aesculapian.

The only public dislike of these animals that I am aware of relate to complaints from mothers with children, who have previously been frightened by snakes appearing in the childrens play area - accusing the zoo of escaped inmates !

I did have a word with the zoo, a few years ago, inquiring as to whether there might be an unseen level of control being enforced on the snakes (irate mothers, bad PR etc), but I was told that there was no active control of the snakes at that time.

I do remain very apprehensive about the future of the animals, and am equally concerned that people with an interest in captive herps might well feel inclined to embark on their own capture initiative -  I hope not........





-------------
John Newton

South Yorkshire ARG


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 6:28pm
I was able to attend the meeting of the Wales Biodiversity Partnership Working Group on Invasive Non-Native Species in Aberystwyth yesterday, standing in for Chris Newman from the Federation of British Herpetologists, who could not make it/was smart enough not to inflict that drive on himself.

The upshot of it is that the opinion of the group is that the Aesculapians should be removed from the wild, and that the Welsh Mountain Zoo (and London Zoo) should be persuaded to do it. This was done on the philosophical basis that all alien species should be removed as a matter of principle, and that the only real chance of doing so is when they remain confined to a small area, as they are now. Moreover, there was also a strong view that Zoos have both a semi-legal (various Codes of Practice) and a moral duty to keep their animals confined and deal with anything that escapes, irrespective of whether it is likely to do damage - quite reasonably so by and large. The decision is clearly based on policy and principle (with a bit of box-ticking thrown in.....) rather than on need from a biological/conservation point of view, but the principles are hard to argue against.

The mechanics would be a matter of the zoos being asked/told to do the work, as opposed to death squads being sent in from outside. The issue of retaining the snakes alive and making them available to the private sector or to research establishments (Bangor University would be an obvious one) was also raised and will be retained for discussion. The precise legalities of that for European protected species still need to be worked out.

So in a nutshell, the long term prospects for the populations do not look rosy, but the timescale of any action is still unclear. Hopefully there will be ways to work towards a more imaginative solution regarding the fate of the snakes than mass euthanasia, especially since it will be the Zoos themselves who would be collecting the snakes. So, for the moment, we all need to stay calm, and please don't go in and collect the snakes independently, it would just mess up a whole bunch of things, including research projects.


-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 8:02pm
I guess then they won't be concentrating on removing the real threat of alien species, such as making it an offence to allow domestic cats into gardens and the wild...

Very sad news indeed, I was hoping some form of common sense may prevail. But it appears it is on the agenda for no other reasons than it is an easy target, someone else has to bear the cost and a couple of boxes get ticked.

I have to say at best it is pitiful. 

I'm sure though Wulfgang we all appreciate both your and Chris's attempts to let sense prevail.


Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 8:15pm
I'm absolutely gutted about this. I've loved going to see and photograph these snakes in London for the past couple of years. I can't believe that such people get to make decisions like this and we all just have to go along with whatever they decide.

Jason


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 8:23pm
It's call democracy Jason.

It is a system where the least qualified people have the power to make decisions based on whatever evidence suits them at the time.



Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 8:38pm
I'm glad I wasn't at that meeting. When you can't get these types people to see sense the burning desire to grab hold of them and ring their scrawny necks would become over-whelming! 
There is so much ugliness in this world that fighting to preserve something beautiful has to be worth it. And to me these snakes are beautiful.

Jason


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 7:17am
I am not surprised; it is simply a box-ticking exercise and these snakes represent the softest of soft targets to allow the beaurocrats to continue in their posts.  I am hopeful that a chronic lack of funding faced by the Zoos will make capture programmes unworkable, but we shall have to see.  Sad to see that the most politically expedient decision has triumphed over the ecological facts.


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 10:43am
It is one of those unfortunate situations where different parties apply different principles.

I can certainly see the point of view of the invasive species people who have a hard time swallowing the line that zoos should be able to let animals escape, establish themselves, and then decide whether they like them or not.

And clearly, beyond the biological reality that they would be extremely unlikely to have a significant impact even if they did spread, our perceptions here are coloured by the fact that we all happen to like Aesculapian snakes. Problem is, I am sure there are plenty of people who like grey squirrels as well....

That said, it is interesting to note that by and large virtually all herpetologists in the UK, including well-known academics specialising in conservation biology (which I don't, so I don't count!), and indeed even CCW, are pretty relaxed about them being there so long as they get monitored, and the whole thing is driven by DEFRA's Non-native Species Secretariat for those political and philosophical reasons.

I had a chat with the Welsh Mountain Zoo, who pointed out that if they removed the snakes, presumably ownership would thereby return to them, and the ultimate fate of the snakes would also be their decision - which increases hopes of a better fate than mass "euthanasia".

In the meantime, here's something to mull over while pondering the politics of non-native species whilst stumbling over dozens of deliberately but perfectly legally introduced aliens in your favourite reptile ex-hotspot...


(stolen from http://www.surrey-arg.org.uk/SARG/08000-TheAnimals/SARGSpeciesData.asp?Species=Grass_Snake" rel="nofollow - SARG web site )

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: Caleb
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Wolfgang Wuster Wolfgang Wuster wrote:

I had a chat with the Welsh Mountain Zoo, who pointed out that if they removed the snakes, presumably ownership would thereby return to them, and the ultimate fate of the snakes would also be their decision

But they would fall foul of the Conservation (Natural Habitats, &c.) (Amendment) Regulations 2007

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1843/regulation/5/made" rel="nofollow - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1843/regulation/5/made  )

which make it illegal to take Aesculapian snakes from the wild, or to possess wild-caught specimens.

Will be interesting to see if DEFRA/CCW are willing to turn a blind eye to this, or will issue a licence- and if so, what conditions the licence would specify...


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 11:23am
The possession issue would quite possibly cause problems in terms of rehoming them (I have to have a licence just to have scale clippings for genetic analysis....), particularly to individuals. Presumably Zoos have some sort of general exemption?

My understanding is that the prohibition on removal from the wild does not apply to the species outside its natural home range.

It's all an interesting minefield of not necessarily very joined-up bits of legislation, so I am sure some interesting discussions will be had...

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 11:34am
don't get me started on pheasants, Wolfgang - almost as bad as domestic cats, and surely responsible for dealing the death blow to many already fragemented and vulnerable reptile populations (eg Adders in Oxfordshire).  Wonder if anyone has done formal research into pheasant impact on reptile populations?


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 11:40am
Would love to know, but not aware of anything.

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: Caleb
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Wolfgang Wuster Wolfgang Wuster wrote:

The possession issue [...] Presumably Zoos have some sort of general exemption?

I'm guessing not, given that the 1994 Regulations list 'protecting any zoological or botanical collection' as a valid reason for granting a licence for possession etc.

Originally posted by Wolfgang Wuster Wolfgang Wuster wrote:

My understanding is that the prohibition on removal from the wild does not apply to the species outside its natural home range.

On reflection, yes, I agree. The capture/killing offence refers to 'a European protected species', and the 1994 definition of 'European Protected Species' (applying only to those species with 'natural range' in GB) persists through the 2007 amendment.

The possession/sale offence applies to 'any species listed in [...] the Habitats Directive', so clearly applies to all those species, no matter if they're resident in GB.


Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 12:37pm

The true definition of ‘in the wild’ is actually a very interesting question to be asking here. What defines a wild habitat and when does a habitat cease to be wild? Do habitats under human control constitute wild habitats? If not, do bats roosting in houses or newts residing in grazed or cultivated landscapes truly exist ‘in the wild’?

It is likely that the distinction can be drawn when an animal is domesticated; otherwise what use is the Habitats Directive. I would suggest that any animal listed in Annexe 4 of the Directive, and not under direct human control is strictly ‘in the wild’. Which poses the question; after what period of time does an introduced EPS cease to be under direct human control? How do we define natural range when the Directive refers to it as being within the European territory?  At the very least, the offspring of an introduced EPS would surely be classed as wild and, if not, why not?

Can a licence to kill these animals be legal? It's ridiculous that people are even humoring this let alone considering it seriously.



Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 12:49pm
Can anyone actually think of any other examples of EPS control, proposed or otherwise, occurring outside the species 'natural range'? It's an interesting line of inquiry i'd say.


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 1:22pm
There has been discussion of the eradication of non-native tortoises in Sardinia - see for instance http://www.senckenberg.de/files/content/forschung/abteilung/tierkunde/phylogeographie/vamberger_2011_testudo_sardinia.pdf" rel="nofollow - here

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 1:32pm
Thanks. It is interesting to note that the Large Blue butterfly has full European protection in the UK despite being reintroduced from continental stocks in the 1980's. Surely after its extinction in the 70's the UK failed to strictly fall within its natural range. So why the protection now? 


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 2:49pm
It would appear to me the same argument could apply to the Pool Frog introduction. It can't be argued the individual animals are 'native'. When the last alleged native died, the UK no longer formed part of the natural home range.

It always seems to me that regardless of any form of legislation it all comes down to individual or organisations agenda.

I just find this whole story very sad indeed. The snakes have been there for over 30 years with no apparent harm. The only thing I can see this achieving is making individuals far less likely to report alien herp species colonies in the future. Which could have serious consequence. A similar case was discussed regarding non-native lizards on the forum a few years back. NE at the time stated no study of impact was to be made. Surely it is nothing more than common sense to include impact as a factor before deciding to eradicate a species just because it is there...


Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 3:09pm
Reintroducing species that have gone extinct makes sense in terms of preserving ecosystem function. Some argue that we should even introduce ecological equivalents of entirely extinct species from different continents to restore ecosystem function if required. Google "Pleistocene Rewilding" for some high-end examples.

As far as wall lizards, Aesculapians etc. are concerned, the decision making process can be summarised as:

1.
The species is
native = good. End.
introduced = bad. Go to 2.

2.
Control is:
Cheap = let's do it!
Expensive = Forget it.

The meeting did mention one case of a wall lizard population having been removed soon after initial establishment without any prior research as a good example of how introduced species populations should be tackled.

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: Caleb
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by Noodles Noodles wrote:

the Large Blue butterfly has full European protection in the UK despite being reintroduced from continental stocks in the 1980's. Surely after its extinction in the 70's the UK failed to strictly fall within its natural range. So why the protection now? 

The Large Blue was protected under the Conservation of Wild Creatures and Wild Plants Act 1975, before it became extinct in 1979. 

That Act was repealed when the Wildlife & Countryside Act was enacted in 1981, and all the species protected were given protection under the newer Act, including the Large Blue.

The 'natural range' part of the 1994 Regulations is specified by including a list of species:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/2716/schedule/2/made" rel="nofollow - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/2716/schedule/2/made
and so they'll still have full protection even if they become extinct.




Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 6:11pm
So does this mean that the Green & Wall Lizards at Boscombe are at risk from being targeted? I do hope not.

Why are these morons allowed to decide which introduced species can stay and which must go?


Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 11:59pm
The large blue was reintroduced in the mid eighties....and it is now protected under EU law despite no longer being endemic to the UK; which is in essence the point i was trying to make.


Posted By: Robert V
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2013 at 10:12am

It seems incredible to me that when 35 million pheasants are released in the Uk EVERY YEAR and 9 million cats can roam where they like to kill what they like EVERY YEAR, and presumably, even if EVERY pheasant only killed and ate one snake in its life time (highly likely), and given that cats kill 10 million reptiles EVERY YEAR in this country,

that a percieved threat from 20 or so Aesculapians would affect reptile populations in the UK!!!

Like Gemma, I want to know who this "they" are? I want their contact details so that we can name and shame.

I don't mind if "they" tackle any percieved "problem" with alien species, provided that they deal with ALL alien species, icluding those that are causing most damage to reptile populations.

R



-------------
RobV


Posted By: Caleb
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 9:25am
Originally posted by Noodles Noodles wrote:

The large blue was reintroduced in the mid eighties....and it is now protected under EU law despite no longer being endemic to the UK; which is in essence the point i was trying to make.

I was really trying to suggest that the current legal position of the large blue came from continuation of existing laws rather than from anyone making a decision that it should be considered as native despite having become extinct.

The pool frog, however, was only given protection after it had become extinct...
 


Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 11:53am

With regards the Large Blue, it’s the idea of defining natural range that I was really considering here. It seems logical to me that when an island, or otherwise isolated, population becomes extinct and is unable to recolonise naturally then any reintroduced population of that ‘species’ is no longer within its natural range (particularly one introduced from a different [Baltic] race). It is really irrelevant that the Large Blue is protected under the WCA since it is listed in Annexe IV of the Habitats Directive as a species of community interest and therefore subject to European protected status (not because of its WCA inclusion but in addition to it). I wanted to explore the idea of a reintroduced population, now clearly existing beyond its natural range, receiving full EU protection. One could even question the definition of a natural range when considering intra-UK Sand Lizard reintroductions, for example.

I know the Aesculapian snake is not native to the UK and never to the knowledge of anyone has it been; however, I can see some parallel, or level of hypocrisy, with the case of the Large Blue. I certainly think it is valid to be asking such questions when considering the eradication of an established ‘non-native’ population of EPS. The Directive is after all there to be challenged, improved and clarified. I think this case must be unique in the UK and needs better legal interpretation and further consideration from the relevant SNCO. Otherwise, as Jay rightly points out, where will this end?

Who is granting Wolfgang licences to take scale clippings and under what protection/control framework are the licences being granted? Do CCW already consider the population EPS? If so, on a scientifically understood population, what scientific or imperative reason is there to consider approving a licence for eradication or removal?



Posted By: Matt Harris
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by Caleb Caleb wrote:


Originally posted by Wolfgang Wuster Wolfgang Wuster wrote:

I had a chat with the Welsh Mountain Zoo, who pointed out that if they removed the snakes, presumably ownership would thereby return to them, and the ultimate fate of the snakes would also be their decision


But they would fall foul of the Conservation (Natural Habitats, &c.) (Amendment) Regulations 2007

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1843/regulation/5/made" rel="nofollow - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1843/regulation/5/made  )

which make it illegal to take Aesculapian snakes from the wild, or to possess wild-caught specimens.

Will be interesting to see if DEFRA/CCW are willing to turn a blind eye to this, or will issue a licence- and if so, what conditions the licence would specify...


The amendments that you are referring to only applies to species in their natural range, which for the Aesculapian Snake, doesn't include the UK. The only statutory protection that these snakes would receive is under animal welfare legislation.

-------------
Local Authority Ecologist


Posted By: Caleb
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 9:23am
Originally posted by Matt Harris Matt Harris wrote:


The amendments that you are referring to only applies to species in their natural range, which for the Aesculapian Snake, doesn't include the UK. The only statutory protection that these snakes would receive is under animal welfare legislation.

I admitted several posts up that I was incorrect about taking from the wild. 

However, possession is an offence for a individual of any Annex IV(a) species taken from the wild in any European country- the naturalised Aesculapian snakes do fall into this category, and that's why Wolfgang needed a licence for his scale clippings.


Posted By: Caleb
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Noodles Noodles wrote:

I know the Aesculapian snake is not native to the UK and never to the knowledge of anyone has it been; however, I can see some parallel, or level of hypocrisy, with the case of the Large Blue.

I think I see where you're coming from now. Does it make it worse that the Aesculapian snake was probably native to the UK before the last ice age (bones having been found in East Anglia)?

It seems that the presence of a species on the list of 'animals which are established in the wild' (Wildlife & Countryside Act schedule 9) does not necessarily imply that it is not native, certainly not since the red kite was added to it in 2010- presumably to prevent unauthorised releases from interfering with 'official' release programmes.




Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 9:57am
That's more or less exactly what i'm trying to say and with no disrespect to you Caleb. I also wonder about the more exotic species that roamed about these lands before the Younger Dryas. However, I did not know the Aesculapian was one such species. It just adds another level to it all in my mind.


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 4:15pm
Caleb wrote: 'However, possession is an offence for a individual of any Annex IV(a) species taken from the wild in any European country- the naturalised Aesculapian snakes do fall into this category, and that's why Wolfgang needed a licence for his scale clippings.'

Also you would need a special licence to be able to release any non-native into the wild (as in grey squirrels trapped in your loft which cannot then be released into your garden) - eg an Aescualpian snake taken in the hand to scale clip and ID; I gather that CCW were happy to licence this, but NE have not been so eager for the London population (though that seems rather academic, now...)


Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 7:01pm
Is this fight over then? Is there nothing we can do do have any effect on the future of these snakes?

Jason


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 6:43am
Hi Jason.  I am reasonably confident that apathy and lack of funding will combat the fundamentalist approach being adopted to the two populations of snakes.  The problems in trying to mobilise public opinion in favour of keeping the snakes as they are in the wild include: 1) they are snakes!  and 2) raising the profile means that every Tom Dick and Harry will come along and think theyre doing the animals a favour by catching them and putting them in a small aquarium tank in their home.  At the end of the day, if the populations are definitely going to be captured, then maybe it will be time to aim for more publicity and perhaps involve the media - but only as a last resort...?


Posted By: Robert V
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 4:43pm

Of course Will, there is a third option...



-------------
RobV


Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 7:01pm
I think we need to make people aware of the possible consequences of allowing this to happen. As we've touched on, this could be just the start with a long list of other species at risk of being in the firing line next. If people are aware that some of the more "cute & fluffy" creatures are also potential targets then they might get on board. 

Who is it exactly that are making these decisions? I like to hear some names of the organisations and individuals behind this.
How can several decades of previous governments have no problem with the existence of these two aesculapian snake populations and then this current bunch come along and decide on the country's behalf that the snakes have to go?

I think we should be fighting to have some kind of hearing or public enquiry to ascertain as to whether this species is actually "invasive" and a genuine threat to our native wildlife or not. if there are no good reasons for their removal other than "they don't belong here" then they should be left alone. The more I read this thread the angrier I get about this situation. How can we be so powerless? Are there not enough of us that care to make any difference at all?

Jason


Posted By: tim hamlett
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 8:32pm
interesting and sad thread.

unfortunately though, being realistic i can't see many people getting particularly excited about a story that is essentially - some snakes have escaped from captivity and started breeding. they are harmless but the authorities want to catch them and place them back in captivity.

lets hope will's right. i've always thought apathy was underrated!

tim


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by JaySteel JaySteel wrote:

I think we need to make people aware of the possible consequences of allowing this to happen. As we've touched on, this could be just the start with a long list of other species at risk of being in the firing line next. If people are aware that some of the more "cute & fluffy" creatures are also potential targets then they might get on board. 

Who is it exactly that are making these decisions? I like to hear some names of the organisations and individuals behind this.
How can several decades of previous governments have no problem with the existence of these two aesculapian snake populations and then this current bunch come along and decide on the country's behalf that the snakes have to go?

I think we should be fighting to have some kind of hearing or public enquiry to ascertain as to whether this species is actually "invasive" and a genuine threat to our native wildlife or not. if there are no good reasons for their removal other than "they don't belong here" then they should be left alone. The more I read this thread the angrier I get about this situation. How can we be so powerless? Are there not enough of us that care to make any difference at all?

Jason

However many there are of us I doubt anyone will listen. 

The authorities do not listen when we warn of or complain about UK protected native species being wiped out. 

I doubt anyone will be listened to at all on this one. I guess most of us think is daft, completely unnecessary, crass, well I could go on all night and often do, but it won't make any difference at all.

The only hope is the whole thing will be forgotten and fall off the agenda before anything is done.


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2013 at 10:01am
Rob wrote:  Of course Will, there is a third option...  - do you mean capturing them and releasing them somewhere else, Rob?  now there is a thought - some lovely remote valley in the south of England with woodland, scrub and plenty of farms nearby for egg laying.  Only joking, of course, as this would be a reprehensible actWink  In all seriousness, people from NE who were against the London Zoo snakes always gave the possibility of someone catching Zoo snakes and releasing them into the countryside at large as a major reason for their eradication.  Personally, I think it far more likely that a population in the countryside would be derived from unwanted captive animals rather than someone deliberately coming to Regents Park and catching enough snakes from there to found a colony, but there you go.


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2013 at 11:48am
I could only think Will that such an introduction attempt would come from a very misguided captive breeder, just like in the past with certain lizard colonies. I much easier route than trying to catch individuals established in the wild and re-releasing them. So I can't follow the NE logic at all. Nothing new there then.






Posted By: will
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2013 at 12:25pm
Exactly.  Far easier to proceed via the captive animals route, as has been done for wall lizards as you say, and perhaps non-native subspecies of grass snake.



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