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Rushey Planed

Printed From: Reptiles and Amphibians of the UK
Category: Conservation
Forum Name: Habitat Loss
Forum Description: Use this forum to highlight harmful development projects and other issues involving habitat destruction
URL: http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4220
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 8:31am
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Topic: Rushey Planed
Posted By: Robert V
Subject: Rushey Planed
Date Posted: 13 May 2012 at 6:22pm
I set out this moring in a good mood, as you can probably tell from the pic I posted marked 'bliss'.
 
It didn't take long did it. I thought, right, some Grassies today so went along to Rushey Plain.
 
I've frequented this area for over thirty years, and it was that bad, I was disorientated, didn't know which direction was which... I reckon over the years I have caught or photographed approx 100 Grass Snakes in this area - now look, gone. Everything scraped to buggery. Even the hibernaculum only fit now for hi-di-hi campers.
 
I can't even put down how gutted I am.
 
 
undefinedundefined


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RobV



Replies:
Posted By: Robert V
Date Posted: 13 May 2012 at 6:54pm
Sorry about the poor quality photo, it's very old, but this is the sort of ground that it was.
 
 


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RobV


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 13 May 2012 at 8:32pm
Rob the bastards have gone bonkers I had my first adder grassiea sloworms and lvs all from this area called rushhey plane 50 year ago F****** twots they shoul all be sacked my sympathy keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 13 May 2012 at 9:09pm
You wouldn't think it possible would you?

My sympathy Rob, I know how it feels to go to what you think is a safe site to see it has fallen under a management plan..... ..... I wonder what the excuses will be this time, blame the contractors, oh it was a mistake..... etc etc.


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 7:21am
I am going metal detecting on this devastated place and will look forward to being challenged by some agency warden about it being a protected area keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: will
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 1:37pm
Keith took the words right out of my mouth!  I thought lessons from the past had been learned in EF, but evidently not.


Posted By: Suzi
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 4:34pm
Nothing that a few picnic tables and interpretation boards won't improve!

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Suz


Posted By: Robert V
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 6:26pm
Cheers guys,
 
I've calmed down a bit now, but it's just unbelievable isn't it.
 
I can't imagine any ecology course, or advice paper, or college hand out ever saying, conservation - bald is the new thatch!
 
There isn't even a blade for a single lizard - how did that get passed as a green light?
 
And you're right Suzi, a nice set of double benched slatted combos, just the ticket, but let Keith do his metal detecting first, he might find an old rusty sign saying out of bounds no bikes or horses, bulldozers only, or might even find the missing bolt from the JCB's bucket.
 
I've got to move, find pastures new, long horns were bad enough.
 
Clap


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RobV


Posted By: tim-f
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 6:59pm
This is unbelievable.  It would be interesting to know what "logic" was behind the decision to do this.  Then maybe this devastation could be used as a good example of what not to do in similar circumstances at other sites?



Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 5:47pm
They already have enough examples at EF Tim to fill a book! 

It's back to the old story, they get funding to do the work, they are not going to let a little thing like protected species get in the way of that.

Very sad but the logic is I'm afraid finance and it is the same story at hundreds of sites across the UK.


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 7:51pm
I'm gutted for you Rob. It really beggars belief the thinking behind ity. Did the know what was there and chose to ignore it or didn't they know ? Will you be taking the matter any further? It's a pity that private prosecution's can't be taken out against these t**ts to teach them a lesson and make others stop and think and take proper advice before giving the go ahead to these mad schemes in future.
 
Chris
  


Posted By: tim-f
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 8:06pm
Maybe I'm being dim, but who did this work, and what was their motivation?  To make the place look better, to benefit other wildlife?

Would the resident herps have been killed directly during the clearing process, or would they have been displaced perhaps to die later due to lack of suitable cover?



Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 8:32pm
Dear nat uk /Epping forest presevation agency.com or what ever you call your pathetic quango of incompetent twonks how can those grassy habitat tussucks ever be replaced??????? keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: Robert V
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 8:54pm
I'm not sure who it could have been, but like Keith says, this area has been pretty well known in herp circles for holding various species so its difficult to imagine how the volunteers (or whoever) wouldn't have known.
 
Besides its obvious, if you have a clearing with good ground cover in the middle of a forest with ponds nearby, then to my mind, you don't go scraping down to top soil.
 
I can only think that the lizards, slow worms and Grassies attempted dispersal into the surrounding thick forest but most would have been taken by Buzzards, Crows, Pheasants - you name it.
 
I've asked Ian (Madfossa) to raise it with the volunteer coordinator as he's due to meet with them soon.
 
It will be interesting to get their feedback.
 


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RobV


Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 9:31pm
Another example for Paul Edgar. The SSSI has all the Essex herpetofauna as interest features in Epping. So is this sort of mismanagement a breach of the SSSI? 


Posted By: Robert V
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 9:38pm
Well,
 
I've just googled rushey plain and found this on the volunteers website - work at rushey plain on 6th May...
 
 

·  Sunday 29 April – Fairmead Pond
Leader: Spencer Cleminson
We will be coppicing willow from around the pond in order to open up the grassland.
Parking:
Fairmead Road CP;
GR: TQ 408968

·  Sunday 6 May – Rushey Plain
Leader: Peter Lyons
We will be continuing with our work at this core site in removing silver birch as part of the HLS Scheme.
Parking: Rushey Plain CP;
GR: TQ 414 985

·  Tuesday 15 May – Knighton Woods
Leader: Peter Lyons
We will be clearing an area around scarce fern in order to encouraged it to spread. This task has been highlighted by Ken Adams, local botanist.
Parking
Knighton Lane CP;
GR: TQ 408935

 
But then


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RobV


Posted By: Robert V
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 9:43pm
I came across this dated 24th March, this year - before the volunteers had been there and it shows the work already having been undertaken!!
 
The mystery deepens?Confused
 

Clearing near Rushey Plain

near to High Beach, Essex, Great Britain

The Geograph Britain and Ireland project aims to collect geographically representative photographs and information for every square kilometre of Great Britain and Ireland, and you can be part of it.
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We have at least 4 images that match your query [Rushey Plain Epping] in the area! http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?searchtext=Rushey%20Plain%20Epping&gridref=TQ4198&do=1&form=external - View them now

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Epping Forest

Epping Forest (formerly known as Waltham Forest) is an ancient woodland north-east of London. As a former royal forest dating from the 12th century, it is managed by the City of London Corporation.

The forest is 2,476 hectares in area, comprising woodland, grassland and open heath, forming a 19km long green corridor.

[abstract from Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epping_Forest - Link
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2012

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http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/TQ4198 - TQ4198 , 40 images   ( http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?q=TQ%204178%209865 - more nearby )

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Geographical Context

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RobV


Posted By: Suzi
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 10:23pm
Come on guys, no one will get in trouble for all this! It is very distressing if it is your patch but we've all had it happen in our localities. What strikes me is there is never a good hard look at what is there before it's all obliterated. I've known little patches which either had a flower that was only present in that one spot or were a hot spot for a particular butterfly every year (one very uncommon) - all cleared down by scraping that has ruined them. Funny thing is a lot of these scraped sites seem to grown back with bracken and yet that didn't seem obvious before.
I know of a large patch on a heath that was gorse and heather which was good for birds and reptiles but is now essentially a big lawn kept cropped by rabbits, and not much use for anything else.
Sadly big machines do big damage very quickly.


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Suz


Posted By: Robert V
Date Posted: 16 May 2012 at 5:28pm
I think Suzi you are correct and perhaps we'll leave that being the last word.
 
No one will ever be prosecuted for it, or even criticised beyond the confines of this forum.
 
We can appease each other knowing that there are at least a few other like minded individuals seeing the poor management in all these "attacks" (as that is how I'm going to think of them), but really, in reality, herps are way down the list.
 
And on that note, this is my 999th posting. I'm going to place my 1000th under Grass Snake as that's where the majority of my postings have been.
 
I have a message for you there.
 
R


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RobV


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 16 May 2012 at 6:38pm
just imagine if this was a stone curlew site of the rspb that got a good seeing to by a D9 do you think they would keep stum only open their gobs when their little world is F****d up ,but carry on doing big clearances with no regard to other wild life its about time someone informed them not only fluffy dicky birds live on heaths .keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 17 May 2012 at 4:10pm
I'm assuming that no dead reptiles were found at the clearance site so I would have thought there's no chance of any legal action being taken against those responsible. Is there nothing we can do collectively to voice our outrage at these ever-increasing atrocities?

Jason


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 17 May 2012 at 5:31pm
There were dead reptiles at Allethorpe, it didn't make any difference though. Apparently if you cry at meetings afterwards it doesn't matter if you commit offences under the WCA. Frankly I've ended up much like Rob, I feel like what is the point? On the one hand I've worked in consultancy where developers are made to pay thousands to mitigate for reptiles and amphibians, on the other I've spent last 30 years watching conservation organisations trash reptile habitat at key sites.

There is only one answer, a high profile prosecution of a conservation organisation under the Wildlife and  Countryside Act. Until then we will just have the usual political maneuvering from all parties and the destruction will carry on. In fact I already think the impact of so many of these clearance schemes is now irreversible. 


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 17 May 2012 at 8:42pm
Well it said it all on a rspb notice board I photgraphed at Hyde heath at Stoborough with huge fines fines for interfering with the habitat and fauna ,but it did not stop the rspb cretins trashing their own site with bulldozers.keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: Chris d
Date Posted: 17 May 2012 at 8:44pm
I agree with you Gemma, after having time to think it through after Allerthorpe was "destroyed" I thought that prosecution wasn't the correct line of action to take as I thought, niavely, that things may change and a lesson may be learned and passed on. Now however, after seeing the upsetting scene happening again ( I'm sure that it won't be the last)it makes my blood boil and I believe that the ones responsible should be taken to justice, it has to be stopped.
I've been to Allerthorpe quiet frequently and nothing has changed. I'm finding it hard to find anything especially "common" lizards in or around the cleared areas. I'm convinced that  a vast amount of reptiles and amphibians have been killed. The cover that used to be there which provided refuge just  isn't there anymore. I used to find the usual amphibians underneath and quite a few times GCN's.


Posted By: Suzi
Date Posted: 17 May 2012 at 10:38pm
Funny isn't it that we, the unlicenced, aren't allowed to so much as touch a GCN or smooth snake and yet it won't be us responsible for their decline.

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Suz


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 1:35am
It's a good point Suzi, we have on the one hand the public and developers scared to so much as touch some of the animals, (I'm not licensed for natterjacks, smooth snakes or sand lizards so for years have never actually gone out to look for them, which is actually a little bizarre really as I might actually be quite good at finding them lol) on the other hand we have those charged with protecting them killing them by the dozen with apparent complete immunity to the laws which are suppose to protect them. 

I know Paul Edgar isn't exactly having an easy time, but I would welcome his comments on this latest case of blatant destruction of habitat of supposedly protected animals. 

Should those of us in consultancy point our clients to these examples - I can hardly see why they should fear prosecution under the WCA for trashing sites when conservation organisations do it all the time with complete immunity. 

What is Natural England's actual stance on this? Whenever I have spoken to local teams they have made statements such as they trust these organisations to know what they are doing or that NE has actually sanctioned the work. When then will it ever end? Never by the sounds of it if NE sanction the works or more likely 'turn a blind eye' to oil the wheels of 'conservation'.





Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 6:45am
The only conservation going on is the conservation of nice cushy jobs that the usual crowd of self opinionated jobs worth cretins and failed politicians,who have wormed their way into the likes of well paid hi profile jobs within the likes off   English nature and Archaeology funded by us tax payers who they then dictate and treat us as a collective bunch of idiots. Keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 18 May 2012 at 1:33pm
Sadly Keith, that is very true in my experience.


Posted By: Madfossa
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 12:43pm
Hi all,

sorry for being out of this discussion for awhile, pc problems and work commitments, but all fixed now!

I was out at R Plain last weekend as part of my "getting to know" the area and it is an abomination, it looks like a moonscape devoid of any scrub or herbage, a very 1 dimensional habitat.

The work is very similar to what has taken place at S Plain in EF, only in S Plain they left the log piles and did not chip all the brush, this has provided a great 3 dimensional habitat where grasses and areas of brambles have provided a thriving habitat where i have recorded  numerous Z vs and Grass snakes as well as smooth and palmate newts.

I met up with Martin Whitfield (Volunteer Development Officer) and Andy Froud (Ecologist) on the 11th May, this came about as I had applied to be a volunteer surveyor back in December last year and they had only just got back to me last month.

Now I want to point out I am not being an apologist for Epp For or City of London, I  am just reporting what they told me !! If you have any comments on what they said please point out if you disagree and give me ammunition :)

The main points of the meeting were as follows:
1. Only 2 Ecologists for the whole of Epping Forest.(1 is part time)

2. Lack of recent records for reptiles in the area.

3. Lack of manpower to input/collate records.

4. Lack of knowledge about reptile conservation/habitat creation

5. Forest rangers spend most of their time people managing.

6. They are very willing to take ANY advise on reptile conservation.

7. They are aware of  obligations to reptile conservation in order to keep SSSI status.

8. Over grazing of Epping Forest.

That's about it really :)
 So what can we take away from this?

Firstly if all the above is true and they want to retain their SSSI status, i believe they will listen to constructive criticism and advice. Primarily we cannot undo what has happened to Rushey Plain but we can stop it happening again.
Their point about recent records of reptiles in E F, on the face of it, seems to echo the problems of sharing records that exists throughout our world. One could summise that if they have no records for a particular area they carry out the work in ignorance....though i'm sure their SSSI status must depend on them doing something positive for reps and amphibs!!.

I have volunteered to help survey EF, just by visual survey, i have collated and shared all my records with ARG and i'm in the process of putting together records for Epping Forest, so they'll be less ignorant of where the reptiles are!! and they wouldnt be able to use it as a defence in future!!!

If anyone would like to give me their own Epping Forest records, i can make sure that they are sent to CoL. I also volunteered to input the records onto their system as they pointed out they have very little time to put any records they do have onto their system, its all so crazy...how do they do anything???
I am trying to be positive in light of the "napalming" of Rushey Plain. So I/we can make sure this doesnt happen again.We cant change/undo what has happened. Concentrate on the solution not the problem.
Maybe i'm being naive??? but we CAN point out their mistakes..to them.. and not just on here.


I dont know enough about bringing a prosecution or the obligations of a SSSI but would be interested to hear peoples views.
I think the main message to take away is "Please share your records"... 
of course this opens up a huge can of worms, Where to share them???? there are so many different places to record sightings, I record everything on ARG but there is also(for my area) GIGL, County recorder, NBN,CLARE, EFC, CoL,  EWT and probably more..its all so confusing !!!
We really need one central record pool. I know there is money to be made from records, but i would rather see ARG benefit from my records.

Ian







Posted By: Madfossa
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 12:47pm
I forgot to mention i saw 4 grasssnakes in an area close to R PL last weekend :)

I also forgot to mention if anyone wants contact details of CoL just pm me for my email address


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 7:31pm
Well there is only one answer really and that is pre-management survey for reptiles and amphibians. Everyone knows that reptiles and GCN occur in the area, so it is a simple thing to arrange areas to be surveyed before any form of management takes place.

I'm sure Rob would have been more than willing to inform that this level of management was totally unsuitable in regard to reptile status at Rushey Plain.

If an experienced surveyor doesn't look for herps in specific places where management is planned, hiding behind a lack of recent records is not really any excuse in my mind.

Lets hope the message gets across and please point them to this thread. For further advice if required.


Posted By: sussexecology
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

Well there is only one answer really and that is pre-management survey for reptiles and amphibians. Everyone knows that reptiles and GCN occur in the area, so it is a simple thing to arrange areas to be surveyed before any form of management takes place.

I'm sure Rob would have been more than willing to inform that this level of management was totally unsuitable in regard to reptile status at Rushey Plain.

If an experienced surveyor doesn't look for herps in specific places where management is planned, hiding behind a lack of recent records is not really any excuse in my mind.

Lets hope the message gets across and please point them to this thread. For further advice if required.


Yet another example of mismanagement, but enough has been said so I'm not going to add anything more.

lack of recent records is pretty feable excuse and too often used as an excuse too.









Posted By: Madfossa
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 9:32pm
Like i said before i am no apologist for CoL and this meeting took place BEFORE this came to light.

When i met up with them I was primarily concerned with Sunshine Plain and the possibility of CoL clearing the logs and brush piles (tidying it up).

Gemma your suggestion that a pre management survey took place is entirely correct, but i can hear the excuses already, lack of money, lack of staff, lack of records, and it is typical of current wildlife mismanagement especially in regard to reptiles.
Its fine to criticise from afar but we need to make sure that they cant hide behind excuses like lack of recent records, lack of manpower, lack of reptile conservation knowledge and make sure they are precisely  aware of their obligations under the SSSI status.
I dont have  enough in depth experience of how  SSSI status is maintained and what happens if obligations arent met, anyone any ideas????
Surely one of ARG's remits is to educate.
I for one will not give up and and just accept that this goes on then moan about it on here and say i told you so. 
All the moaning is not going to bring the reptiles/habitat back, is it? as unfortunate and heartbreaking as it is, preventing it from happening again is the top priority.
I know its frustrating but if there's a chance of educating anybody and saving some reptiles/amphibs i am happy to do it, but i need some constructive input from here 


Posted By: Madfossa
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 9:39pm
Oh and if anyone has any current of historical records for Essex/Epping Forest please pm me.

If anyone one wants my records let me know


Posted By: Madfossa
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 10:43pm
I'm just reading through this www.sssi.naturalengland.org.uk/special/sssi/images/EnforcementPolicyNotice.pdf http://bit.ly/LjMyw2

Thanks for the advice Gemma, will point them to this thread :)

Ian


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 21 May 2012 at 10:32am
I do not think it is up to us to educate to be honest and though I have been willing to, the next problem is that they will totally ignore the results of surveys and the advice of ARGs etc if it does not fit into their plans.

The public are not immune to the the Wildlife & Countryside Act.

Developers are not immune to the Wildlife & Countryside Act.

Consultants are not immune to the Wildlife & Countryside Act.



Apparently conservation organisations are.

What needs to be addressed is the double standard which is cultivated by Natural England, when they sanctions works or state they trust these organisations to know what they are doing.

If they cannot afford pre-management survey for protected species, then they simply cannot afford to carryout the project. Which is fine by me as it will mean that key habitat is not trashed. No rocket science, no excuses, they simply need to get their priorities sorted out.

There still remains only one clear way to address the issue. 

Prosecute under the Wildlife & Countryside act for unlawful killing of protected species. 

No more banging heads against walls, no more fire fighting, no more key people simply giving up out of frustration. No more acidic emails from conservation organisations telling someone with 30 years field experience that their methods are 'flawed'. In fact no more BS full stop.


This doesn't change the fact I would always be willing to advise those who want to listen. Unfortunately whilst doing so half a dozen or more sites will be trashed by those who are not willing or simply do not care. That is the key issue that needs to be addressed and the only way to do that is to make them listen by providing a serious consequence to those who choose not to.

Data request for Essex herp records may now be obtained through the Essex Field Club website at:

http://www.essexfieldclub.org.uk/portal/p/Datasearch - http://www.essexfieldclub.org.uk/portal/p/Datasearch


Posted By: MancD
Date Posted: 21 May 2012 at 1:07pm
Ian,
 
Citation information, activities requiring consent, the current status of the SSSI and views on management at Epping Forest can be found at this link. Hope it helps.
 
Duncan
 
http://www.sssi.naturalengland.org.uk/Special/sssi/sssi_details.cfm?sssi_id=1001814 - http://www.sssi.naturalengland.org.uk/Special/sssi/sssi_details.cfm?sssi_id=1001814
 


Posted By: Robert V
Date Posted: 21 May 2012 at 1:22pm

Hi all,

 

oonnnlllyyyy meeee!

 

Ian, I don't think you're being naive, but I do think the guys responsible are thinking up any old speil to pull the wool over your eyes.

 

The facts are these:

 

1) unfortunately; we can say, let's not look back, what's done is done etc etc, but that just doesn't protect for the future I'm afraid.

 

2) I met the coordinator of conservation (CoL) over Sunshine Plain years ago and told him exactly where Adders, Grass Snakes, Toads, Frogs, Newts etc, were located (as have many others). I discussed at length the need to rotate cattle grazing in different areas, so that the Plains have at least two to three years to recover between each grazing.

 

3) I also asked that if major works were going to be undertaken, such as strimming, rolling, levelling, scraping, that could they please contact me first so that I could impart any local knowledge. I also mentioned to them the RAUK website so if they lost my contact details they could still let me know.

 

I told them (as well as telling the head Rangers) that even if they did not like the purple moor grass etc, it was essential to leave some until the new growth of Heather gave ground cover. They continue to destroy it. I let them have details of hibernaculaums on Sunshine Plain and asked for them to be protected during grazing - they answered by saying "there's no need for that, cattle don't trample piles of Bracken!!"

 

On the Long Running, the "Heather regrowth experiment" hasn't even risen over snail's height in 12 years since they blitzed it like they blitzed Rushey Plain.

 

Adders have declined to a point where there are no longer home range groups but merely scattered individuals. Although some of this may be down to theft, the “opening up” of Adder areas have contributed greatly.

 

Further; in a survey of the Deer sanctuary I let them have my findings and asked for an excavation of an existing ditch (not the most expensive job in the world) to allow for a migration corridor to the lake that exists to the forest beyond.

 

I asked for a twin fence to be erected on the Long Running of just 30 metres, again not expensive, and again to promote a corridor. No joy there either I'm afraid.

 

No, as much as I don't like negative posting, from past experience, they appear just not prepared to make adequate consideration, arrangements or sufficient resources to manage an SSSI to promote bio diversity.

 

They seem to lack the understanding needed to protect Herps, while at the same time, they do not wish to recognise enthusiasts as being people with important advice to heed.

 

It's as if they are too proud to ask. Either that, or as I said, Herps figure way down the list, and as Suzi said, they would rather have picnic tables.

 

Those Plains are also out-of-bounds to Riders and Mountain bikers. I have reported incidence of both and asked for more signs but alas, on deaf ears again.

 

We have to face it, you can meet with whoever you wish and talk until you are blue in the face, but without a high profile prosecution, in three, six, nine months, all will be forgotten and the Forest will decline further in terms of Herps.

 

Sorry to be such a pessimist.

 

UnhappyR

-------------
RobV


Posted By: Fynbos
Date Posted: 21 May 2012 at 8:58pm
We should start an illustrated file of these 'comedy of errors'. Starting with mine way back when.
Then present it to ????
 
You would not believe how much cooperation and respect I get here in SA. We get the job done properly. A siginificant point always to make is that snakes are probably one of the most important vertebrate predators in an ecosystem - that surprises a lot of folk, and also impresses them.


-------------
I get mu kicks on route 62


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 22 May 2012 at 6:54am
I would like to know how real much association and time have these people who do the tidying up had with Rushy and Sunshine plane,and surrounding areas with its herp life and other animals that are no longer to be seen, like our native deer that used to roam free and were rounded up and moved I believe to Hainualt forest many decades ago ? I started my herping life at least 54 years ago under the guidance of author and naturalist Fred Speakman who run a real natural centre that schoolies from London learnt about our wildlife he would turn in his grave at the funded heavy handed mismanagement and personal ideas of a landscaped forest . Keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: Suzi
Date Posted: 22 May 2012 at 8:43am
Keith did Fred write a book on badgers? I have one possibly by him.

-------------
Suz


Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 22 May 2012 at 9:05am
They are damaging the SSSI!!! adders, grass snakes, lizards, slow-worms, common frogs, common toads, palmate newts, smooth newts and great crested all come under the 'interest features' of the SSSI. 

Natural England now have civil enforcement powers  http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/about_us/news/2010/030210.aspx - http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/about_us/news/2010/030210.aspx

They came into force this year so why not get them to use it in relation to SSSI damage at Epping Forest?

of course these powers are worrying to the people which are not immune from the Wildlife Legislation



Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 22 May 2012 at 11:00am
I wonder if NE should have this form of power.

In a democratic society can we afford for an organisation to have such power when it is open to abuse and that organisation has consistently displayed double standards?

For example, a householder who removes weed from a garden pond is very likely to attract the attention of NE and a prosecution (oh yes it has happened) - whilst a large land owner or conservation organisation can trash huge swathes of land with apparent total immunity from prosecution.

It really is about time the ARGs and other herp groups got a handle on this Jon, surely it has gone on long enough now for us all to realise the 'education' route is simply not going to change a thing.

Pressure needs to be put on NE to play fair, the current situation of a double standard is simply not acceptable.


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 22 May 2012 at 8:46pm
Hi Suzy quite possible he wrote about allsorts Poachers keepers tracks etc and I knew he had a couple of brocks at the High Beech centre in the Early 60s and I new him and used to take the odd adder for the centres reptile display that was the days when there were plenty you could even see adders just yards from the Kings Oak pub High Beech not any more due to all habitats that been swallowed up in concrete parking etc as Rob knows.

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: Madfossa
Date Posted: 23 May 2012 at 8:28pm
Thanks everyone, especially Rob for all that info. 

I am so new to the area and lack the local and historical knowledge, although i am getting to know the area slowly.
I am out when i can and slowly getting around different areas constantly looking for reptiles.

I have been in touch with the senior ecologist and the volunteer co-ordinator and had replies back from both of them. The senior ecologist has told me he has to talk with the conservation manager before he can comment on this.
I have sent links to this forum to both of them and invited comments :)
I have asked to meet up with them again, Rob V if you can/would like to be there as your knowledge/experience will be invaluable.
I will let you know if i receive a reply. 


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 24 May 2012 at 5:21am
Question is how come the places that get trashed have remained almost the same in landscape and foliage features for decades, then some paper waving cretin decides it needs altering to fit their idea of how a text book health and safety sanitized wild habitat should look for our dog walking visitors ?????

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: Madfossa
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 6:40pm
Hi all

An update from Andy Froud, acting senior ecologist regarding the works at Rushey plain.
I received this today and makes interesting reading.

"Thank you for your e-mail of 22nd June following up our meeting and your earlier e-mail. We 
have now read the range of comments posted to the website during May, which you pointed 
us to when you first e-mailed on 23rd May. The comments on the website have been 
generated by a first posting that presents an inaccurate picture and implies an indiscriminate 
approach. 

 

The area of work photographed is part of a wood-pasture restoration programme supported 
by Natural England. This work last winter centred around the old Oak and Beech pollards in 
this area that have been or are being killed off by over-shading Birch infill. Every ancient 
pollard in this compartment of the Forest has been mapped and the distribution and health of 
these trees, coupled with information from old OS maps, aerial photos and field visits, inform 
our wood-pasture work. Much of the work involves .haloing. around the old pollards – 
clearing a ring of the competing trees from around them. In addition, we also aim to re-create 
glades and increase edges and lengthen transitions between open and shaded habitats to 
provide/restore a much greater variety of conditions. Such work is aimed at arresting the 
increasing homogeneity of parts of the Forest and declines in its structural diversity and 
openness. Its focus is to restore the Forest‘s complex wood-pasture mosaic from which its 
rich biodiversity springs. 

 

The heathy/grassy areas stretching between Rushey Plain and Sunshine Plain used to be 
larger and better inter-linked than they are today as old OS maps and aerial photos reveal. 
The majority of these grassy areas have been lost over many years, not only due to the 
cessation of pollarding creating a closed woodland canopy but also due to dense secondary 
birch infill shading out the ground flora. The remnants of these glades and corridors can still 
be seen as a sparse Purple Moor-grass ground flora or tall Bracken patches. The glades and 
small open areas that we have opened up around and between Sunshine Plain, Wake Road 
and Rushey Plain since the 1990s have allowed long dormant seed-banks to come to life and 
much scarce heathland flora has re-appeared along with more edge habitats. 

 

To create this variety of habitat the prescription for each task is quite specific. In this case 
work was carried out this last winter to halo Oak pollards and link the areas between them 
and to expand the main heathy glade that was originally re-created by volunteers and staff in 
the 1990s and which has been maintained by active work ever since. This main heathy glade 
itself developed from the re-pollarded area of Hornbeams to the south, which were re-
pollarded in the early 1980s. 

 

It is important to note at this point that the work photographed and discussed on the website 
only involved the felling of Birch, the removal of the felled logs and wood-chippings and 
stump-grinding of selected stumps – using a single access route in and out. There were no 
bulldozers used and no soil was removed or scraped; there was no .planing. of the site. 
Standing and fallen dead wood were carefully left in situ as can be seen from the photograph 
1 below, which is similar to the photograph on the website. 

 

 

 

 

Photograph 1 – the new glade creating an extension northwards from the main glade at 
Rushey Plain. This photo shows the long-fallen dead wood retained in its original positions. 

 

To create this new glade we felled a 2-acre area of dense Birch infill in order to recreate the 
conditions for the recovery of a heathy, wood-pasture mosaic. The ground flora within this 
area was very sparse due to the lack of sunlight reaching the woodland floor and consisted 
mainly of thin patches of bracken, bramble and purple moor grass. Therefore, the lack of 
ground vegetation in the photos posted on the website is not due to the ground flora having 
been mechanically scraped away but due to the former shade suppression by the closed 
woodland canopy. No work was carried out within the already established grassy glade. 

 

The works at this site are identical to the recent works at Sunshine Plain extending the 
heathland by birch removal and stump grinding. Again, the ground flora within this area was 
also very sparse due to former shade suppression and initially looked very bare compared to 
the rest of Sunshine Plain but it is now beginning to establish itself, thereby extending this 
valuable habitat and allowing colonisation by scarce species of heathland flora that otherwise 
would be doomed to ever decreasing pockets and eventual loss. 

 

The photographs below are taken from the north of the new glade at Rushey Plain. The first 
photograph Photo 2) shows the type of Birch infill that has been felled with its shady 
conditions, leaf litter layer and Bracken. The second photograph (Photo 3) is a few paces 
further south from Photo 2, at the north edge of the newly-created glade. It shows the 
Bracken layer and litter and it also shows the =framework‘ of Oak pollards and standards 
around which the work of Birch felling has been carried out. 

Photograph 2 – a few metres in to the north of the newly-created glade, showing the type of 
Birch infill of the original wood—pasture habitat that has been felled to create the glade. 

 

Photograph 3 – a few metres south from the position of Photo 2, this shows the new glade 
from the north, with its Oaks pollards, retained fallen dead wood/trees and bracken layer. 

 

The older grassy glade to the south of the new glade, created by volunteers in the 1990s, has 
become a fantastic example of a mosaic of habitats ideal for many species including reptiles, 
rare saproxylic insects, many other invertebrates and scarce, declining flora. It has provided 
damp, heathy habitat, a threatened resource in the Forest and allowed new, young pollards to 
be created as a successor generation to the ancient trees. The new glade extends this area and 
as the brackeny and grassy vegetation develops will provide part of the structural variety of 
the mosaic upon which a large range of specialised biodiversity has depended and which 
makes Epping Forest outstanding. 

 

In the context of the above, the comments on the website are unwarranted. Unfortunately, 
some of your comments, including references to .napalming. and prosecution, are highly 
inappropriate and offensive. Given that this type of work in wooded areas significantly 
changes the outlook and reference points of the site, creating many new ones such as the Oak 
pollards that have now been revealed, it initially could create disorientation and make it 
difficult to recognise where you are within it. Therefore, I am left to wonder whether this has 
caused a certain amount of confusion and the expressed concern".

 

 

Andy Froud 

Acting Senior Ecologist 

Conservators of Epping Forest 



Posted By: Madfossa
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 6:42pm
If anyone wants a copy of the 4 page pdf with photos please send me your email address to
madfossa@gmail.com, indicating your name and forum name
Ian


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2012 at 11:36pm
Can you ask Andy Froud, to forward me all the results of the  pre-works reptile surveys?

I would be most interested as the Essex County Recorder for Reptiles and Amphibians in the information and the consideration given to reptiles during the works. Reptile surveys were of course carried out considering this is a known hot spot for several widespread species?


Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 7:48am
Congratulations to the extensive reply from Andy Froud about the clearings done within the Rushey Plain area of HB as the clearing of dense birch certainly does need to be controlled as like the feral fir trees on southern heaths that have blanketed out heath land,Provided this is done by hand and not the use of heavy plant machinery that flattens ground level habitats that have existed for many years such as the bad example by the RSPB at Hyde heath at Stoborough near Wareham in Dorset that I reported to no avail .As I have said before I have known these places for well over 5o years and have seen some heart breaking destuction of once tranquil prolific sites in the country caused by over zealous managements ignorance of the habitat situation. keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 1:01pm
Ian has sent me the PDF with the photographs.

In line with what you have said Kieth from the first photograph there appears to have been extensive removal of ground level habitats as it certainly appears to show only recent regrowth. Though it does not appear plant machinery was used certainly one gets the impression of heavy handed management at the site in the recent past.

No doubt the removal of birch will in the long-term be beneficial to reptiles. Really to be quite frank the rest of Andy's response has little or no relevance to the subject under discussion.

As I am sure most would agree here, if reptile surveys are not carried out prior to works it is impossible to identify existing key features such as hibernacula, favoured basking sites and grass snake egg laying sites for example. 

The importance of insuring that such features remained undisturbed during works cannot be overstressed. Nor can the need to leave in place ground level habitats and three dimensional habitat features.

I would like to make it quite clear why I would like to see a prosecution under the WCA. (and I do not mean over this particular event - I mean as a general wake-up call to all site managers)

1) There is a reluctance by many organisations to seek expert advice regarding the needs of herpetofauna at key sites before management works are undertaken.

2) There appears to be little emphasis placed by NE that due regard should be given to herpetofauna during these management works. (or in many cases an assumption that the organisation involved will have taken this into account because their obligations under the WCA are quite clear).

In all none of it is rocket science. 

However it does take an ecologist experienced in the field rather than a generalist ecologist to undertake pre-works surveys and interpret the results.

Whilst there is a reluctance by certain organisation to seek the help of such expert ecologists to prevent the destruction of existing reptile habitats my stance remains the same.

None of us want bad feelings, none of us want to see a prosecution out of any form of vindictiveness towards individuals or organisations. 

All we want to see is that an appropriate level of consideration is given to what are after all legally protected animals.

What one sees again and again is the complete removal of habitats many of us have known for years. Absolutely nobody with any experience of reptile ecology would think this was 'a good idea' or that it could be in any way beneficial to herp species in my opinion.


I will add that I would like to visit the site. Might be good if several of us can meet up there at some point and take a look round?



Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 12:24pm
I think it would also be useful for forum members to take a second look at Andy's response.

His first tactic is to undermine Rob by stating that his first posting presents an inaccurate picture.

Why on earth would Rob want to wind himself up over yet another event at EF unless he had genuine reason for concern? Or attempt to mislead the members of this forum? He is a highly experienced field herpetologist. If he thinks that the works damaged reptile habitat then I am 100% inclined to take his word for it. This is exactly the sort of tactic one can expect if raising these issues, instead of listening to Rob's concerns Andy attempts to undermine him.

As for the rest of Andy's response, who else is reading through the lines? It is a case of not what is stated in the response, it is a case of what it  does not state. Hardly any mention of reptiles at all and no mention of the SSSI status at the site.

I've come to term this as 'squirming' or 'smoke and mirrors' down the years. For many people the wool will be firmly pulled, it 'sounds' like many good things are happening. It at no point however addresses the issue at hand, what provisions were put in place to safeguard herpetofauna at the site during the works and insure their conservation status was not lowered?

Reading Andy's response for the second time, one would have to assume none at all.

No doubt his next tactic will be to undermine me by saying I'm insulting (again). Save your breath Andy, I know already and I don't give a damn... ... I'm only involved in all this because the animals can't speak for themselves and it isn't me that goes around wrecking their habitat...




Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 4:08pm
I thought at first it was pretty much a genuine response as to clearing of the birch but have had another look at the reply and can see why Gemma is angry about it, and of course I am all supportive of Robs dismay as to the clearing of Rushey plain as I was introduces to herps years ago there ,and used to know all the spots such as the one mentioned and sunshine plain with its last bits of remaining heather and I also find it insulting to people like Rob and dare I say it even my self who have years of intimate knowledge of the Epping forest reptile habitat and I think most people on this site should know by now my views on habitat demise.keith

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   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID


Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 4:30pm
I'm not angry Keith, I'm persistent. Wink

I would like Andy to provide

1) The results of the pre-works reptile surveys

2) A concise (couple of paragraphs) explanation of how the results were interpreted and key habitat features retained during the works

3) Photographic record that such features were retained

Until the above are supplied I am inclined to think that no regard at all was given to existing herpetofauna at the site. 

That Rob has every right to be raising the issue without being accused of 'presenting an inaccurate picture'. 

That Andy Froud ought to seriously consider Jon C's statement earlier regarding the issue of potential damage to the SSSI caused by these works.

And lastly that we have every right to discuss the events on here without being accused of being insulting. (again).



Posted By: Robert V
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 3:35pm
Firstly,
 
can I say thanks Gemma for the support, and for seeing the wood for the trees, no pun intended.
 
Like you say, Mr. Froud's extensive reply is more about what isn't mentioned than what is. A long history lesson and plenty about the Oaks and the Birch - nothing about what dwells beneath.
 
So' here's a cut and paste of my reply.
 

“The heathy /grassy areas stretching between Rushey Plain and Sunshine Plain used to be larger and better inter-linked than they are today as old OS maps and aerial photos reveal. The majority of these grassy areas have been lost over many years, not only due to the cessation of pollarding creating a closed woodland canopy but also due to dense secondary birch infill shading out the ground flora.”

 

Er, yes, is that an admission of poor management over the years then Mr. Froud?

 

 

“In this case work was carried out this last winter to halo Oak pollards and link the areas between them and to expand the main heathy glade that was originally re-created by volunteers and staff in the 1990s and which has been maintained by active work ever since.”

 

Call it “haloing”, call it what you want, but whoever did it removed all the ground vegetation. I know this Mr. Froud because I have walked through the forest practically every weekend for over 15 years. It is just very unfortunate that when this – “haloing” - was happening I hadn’t happened along. I can assure you that had I been there in time, and had I found a single reptile killed as a result of being “haloed” to death, there would have been a legal involvement.

 

 

“It is important to note at this point that the work photographed and discussed on the website only involved the felling of Birch, the removal of the felled logs and wood-chippings and stump-grinding of selected stumps.”

 

That’s total poppycock. My photographs don’t lie Mr.Froud. They show the ground completely scoured of ground cover. Are you saying that between the larger trees no ground vegetation existed whatsoever? Did you take photographs before the works started?

 

 

“The ground flora within this area was very sparse due to the lack of sunlight reaching the woodland floor and consisted mainly of thin patches of bracken, bramble and purple moor grass. Therefore, the lack of ground vegetation in the photos posted on the website is not due to the ground flora having been mechanically scraped away but due to the former shade suppression by the closed woodland canopy. No work was carried out within the already established grassy glade.” 

 

Please say in black and white Mr. Froud that you are calling me a liar. I am telling you that there was a healthy range of ground cover in this area prior to the works being undertaken. It was one of the few strong holds of Grass Snakes in the forest, and I have records of those, Slow Worms and Common Lizards here in 2011. I agree with Gemma, Kindly show us the results of the reptile surveys undertaken here before work started?

 



-------------
RobV


Posted By: Madfossa
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 12:30pm
Thanks for your replys and views on this subject.

Especially to Gemma who put across your views so eloquently and persuasively, and to Rob whos intimate knowledge both historically and upto the present date are invaluable when presenting a case/argument. 
I actually visited the area on sunday to do a quick visual survey, see what was about. I didnt see any sign of reptiles at all, though time of day may have been a factor.
If as Gemma suggested anyone wants to meet up there let me know.



Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2012 at 5:21pm
I keep checking back to this topic to see if Andy has addressed the points raised and come up with any satisfactory explanations. Unfortunately he hasn't. Unhappy

Jason


Posted By: Madfossa
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2012 at 1:00am
Dont think he'll comment on here tbh, i have emailed concerns to him and will post back when i get a reply



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