How Common are Red frogs in England?
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Category: General
Forum Name: UK Reptiles and Amphibians
Forum Description: A forum for general questions and answers relating to wild reptiles and amphibians in the UK
URL: http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1637
Printed Date: 18 Apr 2024 at 7:48am
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Topic: How Common are Red frogs in England?
Posted By: Cavy
Subject: How Common are Red frogs in England?
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2006 at 1:05pm
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Sorry if this has been covered (did try to search, but was surprised I came up with nothing). We have a very red frog in our pond. She has been like this for months, although I think she may be getting darker red (since I first noticed her a few months ago). I don't think it's Red Leg (a bacterial infection, apparently), because she's red all over & seems ok other than being dark brick red, and none of their other frogs have been found dead (or red). How uncommon is this? She (or he) is a full adult. We live in north Norfolk. |
Replies:
Posted By: Jimpklop
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2006 at 2:51pm
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Hi Cavy Frogs aren't a strong point of mine I'm trying hard to learn about these aspects. What size is the Housing? How many frogs are housed there? Could you get a picture? Thanks James ------------- Im Craving Adder's(www.jimpklop.moonfruit.com) |
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2006 at 2:56pm
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Well Cavy, reports of oddly coloured common frogs (red/black/yellow/orange etc) are now fairly common particularly in urban areas. Piccy would be interesting to see. |
Posted By: Cavy
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2006 at 4:36am
 Sorry everyone, I'm so bad at this I can't even figure out how to add a new reply to this thread, but it seems I can edit this post? So I've now got a picture uploaded. Big Update is that the frog has died, so maybe she was poorly with something (it looked like she had a fungus or rot on her bottom, as you can almost see in this pic). So maybe she was poorly. But she was quite mature (not a subadult for sure). But rest of frogs still seem ok (if suffering from pond shrinkage in this heat wave). Pond size: it's a half-circle shape with radius of about 1.5m, so not small. We live on the edge of a market town. We live right in front (downwind) from a field growing barley that has been sprayed -- could chemicals cause the frog to be so red? |
Posted By: mynewt
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2006 at 4:41am
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Hi Gemma and other Raukers After having followed the various threads for a while on the site I thought it was time to take the plunge myself.. This is about the apparent increase in oddly coloured (common) frogs, especially in gardens. Apart from simple observer bias, I wonder if this has little to do with inbreeding and genetic drift (if so, wouldn't most of the frogs around one breeding site be expected to show the same 'odd' colour ?) and more to do with increased survival of odd coloured frogs in the benign environment of the garden. Most, if not all, of these odd coloured frogs are being observed as adults / subadults. Maybe it's just that the same fraction of odd coloured froglets metamorphose in the wild and in suburbia, but the higher survival rate for odd coloured frogs can be greater in gardens due to a lack of predation - especially by colour sensitive predators like herons (which do visit garden ponds, I know, but can't be as significant in this environment than in the 'wild'). To test this idea, it would be necessary to count the proportion of odd coloured froglets at metamorphosis in wild and garden populations, and see if there were differences in a) the proportions of odd coloured froglets in the 2 kinds of habitat and b) whether survival rates of odd coloured frogs were different post-metamorphosis in the 2 areas. Has anyone done any work to test this ? Any thoughts welcome. I'll try to post a pic of a lovely near-black common frog from a site in Islington, north London, which I saw last week - as well as a similarly coloured crested newt from a few years back, to show that the same odd colours can happen in suburban GCN too.. Cheers Mynewt |
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2006 at 5:47am
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Hi Mynewt, I've seen near black frogs in Haringey. One interesting obs I made was when clearing an isolated courtyard population at an inner London school. Firstly, the pond had to go because of insurance reasons. The population could be assumed to be 100% isolated. The interesting bit was that all the youngest frogs looked 'normal' only as you have stated, the sub-adult and adult frogs showed colour aberration and rounded snouts. So counting odd froglets may not provide any information as it appears the symptoms occur in later life. There is no doubt in my mind that these odd frogs are mostly centered around garden populations, perhaps pointing to genetic factors, however I have also observed the occasional odd frogs in the wider countryside in the last couple of years showing similar characteristics. (colour aberration, rounded snouts, unusual gait, generally odd looking). Certainly common frogs visiting our garden pond from the wild look like the ones I remember from childhood, quite different to the distinctly odd ones I see on call outs in more suburban gardens. I wonder if it would be worth close observation of the development of frogs from these populations? Certainly something is not right but it appears mostly there is little interest in the issue. PS Cavy, you can upload images directly to the forum using the |
button, if all else fails just email me the piccy at admin and I'll post it up.Posted By: mynewt
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2006 at 7:25am
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Thanks for the reply Gemma. Your point about the froglets not yet showing their 'true colours' is a good one. I guess what I meant was that odd frogs - colour, shape etc - perhaps even the odd extra leg ! - might be no more common to start off with in gardens than in the wild, but that relaxed selection in gardens might allow them to persist for longer than in the 'tangled bank' of Darwinian realities out in the wild. As a result, alleles which could be maladaptive in the wild are not ruthlessly selected against and become more prevalent in the garden habitats. This is a separate although not mutually exclusive explanation from that offered by Trevor Beebee in which genetic drift (ie neutral selection) is held responsible for odd colours being more commonly observed in suburban than wild frog populations. Mynewt PS In my limited experience, 'round nosed' common frogs are very often older ones, and I would agree that this often correlates with odd colours and patterns - perhaps some frogs get more striking patterns as they age ? |
Posted By: mynewt
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2006 at 7:42am
 Here are the odd frog and GCN from London; apologies for the low quality of images, especially the GCN which is a photo of a photo.. I thought the frog had a particularly black slimy mud on it when first seen but in fact that black colour is the frog's own  Mynewt |
Posted By: mynewt
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2006 at 3:55pm
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Nice to see this illustration of at least one 'odd' / bright female common frog going back to the turn of the last century, from Boulanger's book Mynewt  |
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2006 at 6:03am
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The rounded snouts I've seen on 'odd' frogs have included sub-adult individuals, perhaps not a clear description, though I am not confusing it with the usual appearance of adult female common frogs. There are other symptoms also including the look of the membranes surrounding the eye that mark some of the colour abarrent frogs apart in my mind to 'normal' frogs. The Trevor Beebee theory has a lot of merit, I wonder if counting odd coloured juveniles is not going to work, what other options are there to carry out field work to investigate this? |
Posted By: mynewt
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2006 at 10:31am
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I guess you'd have to capture large numbers of froglets from wild vs suburban populations and raise them for a while til they show their true colours - not an easy thing to do ! If I'm right, there should be no significant difference between odd colours in frogs derived from wild areas and those from suburban areas, provided they're raised in identical conditions. With reference to Trevor Beebee's work, I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that he did a genetic analysis of urban frogs looking for heterozygosity at specific gene loci, as an indication of inbreeding, and found more in urban than rural populations. On the other hand, even an occasional input of fresh genes from a frog down the road can boost the variation in a population for a long while. This raises the whole controversy of spawn swapping - inbreeding dangers vs red leg etc once again, of course. |
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2006 at 11:34am
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My problem with this is there seems to be more to it. The Boulanger frog appears no different to many observable in wild populations, the 'odd' frogs seem to me different in many aspects to more 'normal' healthy specimens I observe. I guess I could say it is a bit like seeing a rabbit with the last stages of myxomatosis, you don't need to know what caused it to instinctively feel something is 'wrong' with the animal. |
Posted By: mynewt
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2006 at 3:14pm
| I agree Gemma - truth is, I just like the Boulanger illustration - there is definitely something more unusual than just an orange-ish female frog situation in some of these urban frogs. But my main point is simply that I think it might be worth investigating the hypothesis that this sort of maladaptive trait might be less selected against in the cosseted world of the back garden than in the rough and tough of 'the wild'. |
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2006 at 4:10pm
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I think it may well be, not sure of the raising lots of frogs, being perhaps one of the worst captive subjects I can imagine! I wonder though if a field measurements/notes could be collected? If it could be defined which traits were 'odd' and which normal perhaps we could move towards seeing if it does occur generally more in garden populations? I can certainly sample some population of 100+ wild frogs that I think would generally return 'normal' results from past observations.. could this work with RAUK members also keeping an eye out for the 'odds' PS I liked the Boulanger illustration, thanks for sharing it |
Posted By: mynewt
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2006 at 5:27am
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Good idea Gemma; one for the spring, perhaps - we could make a note of 'odd colours' in breeding frogs at 'wild' vs 'garden' sites, when there is a large sample size. Of course it wouldn't tell us whether if there IS a significant difference whether this is due to inbreeding and genetic drift, or less natural selection against odd colours in suburbia, or a combination of both. That would then need the tricky follow-up of raising loads of froglets in netted enclosures - MSc project anyone ? And, as you say, there would be the problem of accurately defining what we mean by 'odd' colours and 'the wild' vs 'suburbia / gardens'; anyway, I'll try to do some work next spring - something to look forward to while we're all roasting at the moment.. |
Posted By: Cavy
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2006 at 6:09pm
| Woops! I've edited my previous post to now show pic of my red frog (who is sadly now deceased). |
Posted By: Deano
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2006 at 3:58am
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For what it's worth when I visited Skomer Island a couple of years back, I noticed all the toads there were brick red. Could these localized colour variations be due to a local food source? Perhaps a particular mineral gets into the food chain. Like the small shrimp that flamingoes eat and which gives them their pink colouration. ------------- Deano Better to be lucky than good looking. |
Posted By: mhows
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2006 at 9:30am
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There were large numbers of brick red froglets at Tichwell RSPB (Norfolk) reserve at the weekend, in the the woodland between the car park and visitors centre.
Mark |
Posted By: Molliecat
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2006 at 12:39pm
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I have only just found this thread. I did post photos of my red frog a few days ago - http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1626&get=last - http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1626 &get=last Ours, as you can see, is quite a vibrant red. It brought to mind something I saw years ago where rodents living near a chemical factory were fluorescent yellow. I wondered whether something in this frog's environment might have contributed to its colouring, but then it is one of a large number of frogs in the pond - and all the others are normal in appearance. |
Posted By: neshiah474
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2010 at 5:27pm
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Hi,I was speaking to a friend today (10th) and she showed me pictures she had taken of a red frog thats been in her pond for the past two years. I said I would do a bit of research to try and find out what kind of frog it is Its not sort-of-red but very red. I would gladly upload the pics but don't know how this would be achieved. Could someone please tell me how to do this. Many thanks. Neshiah474. |
Posted By: Iowarth
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2010 at 11:42pm
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Hi there We would love to see pictures of your red frog. To upload your picture firstly please make sure it is no larger than 1 Mb. (this can be quickly and easily achieved by resizing it to a maximum dimension of 1000 pixels using the software that came with your camera) Make sure you know where it is saved on your computer and then reply to this post. In your reply click on the last but one icon in the top row of icons above the window you type in. It has a little picture of a tree with a blue upward pointing arrow. Simply click on that icon and in the pop-up dialog box, browse to the picture on your computer and click on [OK]. And that's it! Look forward to hearing from you. Chris ------------- Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED) |
Posted By: Liz Heard
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 8:28pm
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hi all,
heres a reddish one i saw in the garden recently; 
among the 100+ adults that came to breed in my urban ponds this year there were 2 or 3 thus coloured. one individual in particular was very noticeably ruddy. isnt it just that the common frog is quite variable in markings/colour? i thought mynewt hit the nail on the head when he wondered aloud whether red or otherwise strikingly coloured frogs are born just as frequently in the "wild" (however you define THAT) but are simply more likely to succumb to predators there due to their increased visibility. i think thats all it is. ok there are more cats in towns but the range and tally of natural predators is hugely reduced, refugia, worms etc in back gardens are abundant and frogs like wet nights which felines mostly avoid. frogs do well in these environments. i dont go with the genetic isolation theory. even in cities frogs are highly mobile and often travel in the dead of night when traffic is much lower. a few leaps and theyre over a main road or safe from a cat. they get about anywhere. females are known to "home in" on the smell of algal blooms in new ponds from distance and head for them as good places with food stores for their tadpole broods. males also call of course. so new ponds and other colonies "call" frogs in and theres often someone digging a fresh pond somewhere near you. they are popular garden features. i see them all the time when visiting properties in my duties as a postman. youd have to have a motorway around you to keep rana out. they even live underground in sewers- ive seen them there myself. EG rauk member kevb dug a tiny pond in his garden. only around 2'sq. right in stroud town centre and surrounded by high fencing, car parks and busy roads. NEXT DAY there were frogs in it. god knows where from. another reason i disagree that red frogs result from in-breeding is that my pond is only 10 years old and i sourced my original frogspawn from several sites (in a bid to offset future genetic isolation risk) and as i said ive noted a couple of reds. also, ones with dark patches like in your pic. though less so. surely its too soon to see signs of G Isolation? ben smooth newts range in appearance here a bit too. some are very dark, others light and spotty. the most variable brit newt. |
Posted By: lalchitri
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2010 at 9:32pm
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I've always found weak and docile frogs hiding regularly in my pond. The real stallions only appear in March and then disappear. ------------- Reformed Teetotaller |
Posted By: chad0x001
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2011 at 4:37pm
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Here are a couple of frogs we found in our garden today. one red, one green. Have better quality images on camera if anyone wants to see more. Have their bellies etc :D err, cant seem to upload a photo. When I click the insert image link it shows me a preview page but no uploader :/ help?
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Posted By: Iowarth
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2011 at 5:54pm
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We would love to see pictures of your frogs. To upload your picture firstly please make sure it is no larger than 1 Mb. (this can be quickly and easily achieved by resizing it to a maximum dimension of 1000 pixels using the software that came with your camera) Make sure you know where it is saved on your computer and then reply to this post - ensure you use the "Post Reply" option at bottom left of the thread. In your reply click on the more or less central icon in the top row of icons above the window you type in. It has a little picture of a tree. Simply click on that icon and in the pop-up dialog box, use the "Choose" button to browse to the picture on your computer and click on [Upload]. The picture will appear in a list above these buttons. Select it and it will appear in the preview window to the left. Then click on [OK] below this and it will be isnerted into your post. Chris ------------- Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED) |
Posted By: Noodles
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2011 at 10:57am
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I mentioned the possible cause of red frogs being due to inbreeding in another post. I had read this somewhere but could not remember where, although i had thought it was T Beebee's Frogs and Toads book. Can you remember in what publication you saw this? Cheers in advance
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Posted By: sandy
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2012 at 10:08pm
 Last year i had two red frogs. This year i have seen at least four. They all seem to be female. I understand the colour comes from where they have hibernated.
------------- frog friend |
Posted By: GinnyB
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 10:01pm
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I can send you pictures of a red frog I took today (26.2.2012) if you would like it, Chris, but I can't see an icon with a tree and an arrow. Would you like to send me an email to ginnyjilly@hotmail.com? atb, Gillian ------------- Ginny |
Posted By: GemmaJF
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2012 at 10:48pm
If you click this icon  then the full reply window will open, which includes the icon with a tree
 which you click to upload an image.
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Posted By: GinnyB
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2012 at 12:56pm
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I can now see the tree but can't upload the photo. Sorry to be so computer-illiterate; I am the wrong side of 65 for all this stuff. As I had expected, I found the red frog dead in the pond yesterday. Ginny ------------- Ginny |
Posted By: Iowarth
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2012 at 1:19pm
No problem Ginny (although the "wrong side of 65" excuse won't work - so am I !  ). Simply email it to me at admin@herpetofauna.co.uk and I will load it up for you.All the best Chris ------------- Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED) |
Posted By: Liz Heard
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2012 at 7:08pm
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welcome to the premier wild UK herps forum new members! as previously stated, i had a couple of ruddies 2 years ago (my best year for frogs - about 100) and a reddish individual drowned in a mating ball in one of my ponds last year. no reds at all this time tho'. nor any of the other unusual colours ive heard about/seen pix of. i havent had any of those anyway. tho i like to see them!! all the best, ben |
Posted By: kevinb
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 4:41pm
| There are a pair of frogs in my pond in amplexus now, the female is red. Will try to get a pic some time. |
Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2012 at 9:24pm
Here are some reddish ones from my garden last year:    Jason
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Posted By: sandy
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2012 at 8:31pm
here's a picture of Ruby taken this year. Sandy ------------- frog friend |
Posted By: JaySteel
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2012 at 4:45pm
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That's a pretty one. It looks a little reluctant to come out and have its photo taken. Jason
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Posted By: speekingtree
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 6:14pm
my neighbour found this in her garden, we live in west somerset. any idea if its a frog or a toad?
thx |
Posted By: Iowarth
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 10:31pm
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Hi there Thanks for the pic - this is definitely a common frog - and rather a splendid one colour-wise. Chris ------------- Chris Davis, Site Administrator Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED) |
Posted By: speekingtree
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 11:33pm
| ty for the identification :) |
Posted By: AGILIS
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2014 at 7:45am
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I used to see lots when I was a kid and there where plenty + the large tadpoles keith ------------- LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID |
Posted By: kevinb
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2014 at 5:38pm
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Slightly off topic as it was photographed in France but here is a good example of a red Common frog http://s239.photobucket.com/user/kettykev/media/198-Copy_zpsb0a9fe35.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Liz Heard
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2014 at 5:01pm
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Was just looking through some old pics and found this one: http://s935.photobucket.com/user/benrigsby/media/IMG_1401_zpsffedbe1c.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: will
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2014 at 5:12pm
she's a beauty!
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Posted By: Iminei
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 2:42pm
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I once had a very orange frog in our garden...I wondered whether she was a female in mating colours.. she was certainly fully developed. I took a pic of her but still don't know how to post pics so here is a link to my picasa for those of you interested.....(I think you'll have to copy and paste .... sorry what can I say ...I'm a technoduce!)
https://plus.google.com/photos/115247778556127452254/albums/6137587633400083073?banner=pwa Sadly she died that winter (2010) after making a bad choice as to her hibernation home during the coldest winter down here for years, a butler sink.....it was not a happy time in the spring when it finally defrosted. |
Posted By: will
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 6:33pm
| I'm sure someone has asked this before, but why are female common frogs often the brighter of the sexes I wonder? goes against sexual selection as they don't need to show off their colours to the males, and it makes them much more visible in their breeding aggregations amongst the grey/browns of the males... |
Posted By: Liz Heard
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2016 at 3:08pm
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I don't know Will but i was wondering the other day if red frogs were simply a 'throwback' that occasionally crops up again. Successful species that have been around a long time show the greatest variation. Being red might not always be a disadvantage. Although nowadays our countryside is mostly a green (and brown) landscape, in the past, large-leaved European natives that shed red litter like Guelder Rose and the now rather scarce here, Wild Service Tree which, in Britain at least, mostly spreads by suckers rather than seed, may have been more patch-forming/widespread/common. There are also areas of the country such as around the aptly-named Redmarley on the Glos/Heres border where the soil is very red. Just a thought! |
Posted By: will
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2016 at 6:27pm
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Hi Ben, yes, the throwback idea sounds good to me, as does red soil etc background. But of course it still doesn't explain the gender bias with a greater variety of colours being found in female frogs than the rather dull males. I think maybe it's to do with the fact that males spend longer in and around ponds especially in winter and very early spring when our ponds are a dull grey / brown and fresh vegetation has yet to appear? Having said that, a croaking male with a blue throat is pretty conspicuous and herons seem to have no problem finding them... |
Posted By: Liz Heard
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2016 at 10:39am
Hi Will, Sorry for the late reply...busy, busy, busy!  Yes, that seems to make a lot of sense. Croaking males may be conspicuous but since males outnumber females at the pond so much, maybe the losses to herons etc doesn't make much difference overall. Of course where the soil is red, the water often is too. This one in Devon looked polluted but wasn't, and the colour was taken up by the swelling spawn too. Never seen groups of red tadpoles though (would be nice)!  http://s935.photobucket.com/user/benrigsby/media/IMG_5668_zpser0lql1n.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Elsewhere in Devon, i came across this remarkable rural stream that looked more like magma than water....... http://s935.photobucket.com/user/benrigsby/media/IMG_6054_zpsrhihcqi3.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  http://s935.photobucket.com/user/benrigsby/media/IMG_6057_zpsll7v3qgt.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Once again though, it seemed perfectly healthy. There were no signs of death, disease or stagnation around. |
will wrote:Posted By: Caleb
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2016 at 11:45am
I've seen similar looking red spawn at a pond in Durham on an old railway line. I assume there's some rusting ironwork under the ground that causes it, as the soil's not red. All 4 common amphibian species breed there, so I guess it doesn't affect their health in this case either.
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