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Snake Gloves, handling

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Category: General
Forum Name: UK Reptiles and Amphibians
Forum Description: A forum for general questions and answers relating to wild reptiles and amphibians in the UK
URL: http://www.herpetofauna.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1291
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Topic: Snake Gloves, handling
Posted By: timbadger
Subject: Snake Gloves, handling
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 4:59am

Hi there i was looking to draw on your experiences when it comes to handling adders, more particularly the gloves that people use.

My present company have invested in very expensive snake gloves from the states, my issue is that these are not only are these costly to replace (they only lasted 2 seasons of translocation), but more importantly are bulky and difficult to catch things with and then hard to tell how much pressure is being exerted. Previously i had been using welding gloves which i believe to be think enough and understand that this is pritty much the norm.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on the matter

 

:-)

 




Replies:
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 5:41am

Hi Tim,

The real risk I find is unseen adders in the undergrowth when you are lifting artificial refugia. I agree gloves tend to give no feel and it is easy to loose an adder that slips through gloved hands.

My way around this is to use one leather gardening gauntlet on my left hand. I use the gloved hand to lift the refugia, thus avoiding the risk of cuts from tins and strikes from hidden adder in the undergrowth, the other hand is bare ready to tail adult adders if they are under the tin. I also carry a small very light snake hook in my bucket, useful to get control of the head if an adult adder is coiled under refugia and encourage it to move away from you ready for tailing with the unprotected hand.

I find juveniles more tricky to handle, again the single gloved hand is useful as it can be used to smother the poor little thing whilst the other hand finds somewhere safe to grip for the capture. Usually when lightly covered in this way they sit still. Sometimes it is possible to scoop up a juvenile in the gloved hand and tranfer it to a container immediately.

Adult adders out in the open can be handled quite safely without gloves, its just a matter of knowing how really. For example if you tail an adult, keep the front part of its body on the ground, it will then tend to try to make its way off rather than attempt to bite, in this way they can be controlled and then when your ready lifted swiftly into a bucket or bag.

I would recommend if you have any doubts at all about handling adder to meet up with a forum member in your area more experienced at  handling them to go through the basics, it works wonders for your confidence.



Posted By: timbadger
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 8:37am

All good advice gemma and thanks for the input, the interesting thing for me in your reply was that you use a gardening gauntlet. My aim of the post was to see what people do use for protection not really getting advice on how to actualy handle them. I apreciate that i was not clear on this point. The issue is one of Health and safety, where the company feel that without providing specialist equipment for use with venemouse animals they are at risk in terms of insurance and legal action. Im trying to find out what the standard is, since i know of no other consultancies who have these useless gloves imposed on them  

Also i wanted to check that i was corect in feeling that welding gloves are adequate for the task since ive never had one actually bite the glove (to the best of my knowlage).

Just to clarify the gloves which we are being told to use have a thick suade erm. coller which come up to your armpit, have thick pading are, i belive 'Rattler proof' being around 3mm thick. Strangely they have very short fingers  which make them fit badly.

 

:-)

 



Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 11:40am

Hi Tim,

Most people I know use, no gloves, motorcycle gloves, gardening gauntlets or welding gloves. This includes independent consultants and consultants working for large companies and specialist field workers. I've yet to hear of anyone with a bite through any of these materials, only of one case of a consultant bitten by an animal concealed in surrounding vegetation who was tagged on an unprotected finger.

If your talking about the monster gloves from companies such as Midwest, they are indeed useless for handling adder and were not designed for use with small vipers in the first place, perhaps this is a point worth raising with your company?

I'm not sure if there is a standard as such. When I fill out health and safety risk assessments for jobs I tend to put little mention of protective equipment for handling adder, only that the worker should have adequate training in the techniques involved and be aware of the potential symptoms of a bite and appropriate first aid. The use of gloves is in my mind a personal thing, each worker should use the methods and equipment they feel comfortable with when handling venomous snakes.

I wouldn't be at all happy if a company I was sub-contracted to insisted on me using a bulky 3mm thick glove, which in my opinion would act as more of a distraction and therefore have a negative impact on both my health and safety and the welfare of the animals being captured! Certainly large consultancies I have worked for in the past have not specified any particular equipment to use whilst capturing adder.

It is worth considering that adder only have a small gape, it isn't really so much a case of worrying about whether the fang would penetrate the glove material, more a case that if the glove is sufficiently bulky the snake won't get its mouth round it to embed a fang in your finger. Perhaps you can try this angle with your company?



Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 1:27pm

 

The use of gloves is really to give you confidence in picking up the snake. I often use ungloved hands to pick snakes up with a hook. The snake gloves from the states are vet gloves designed for handling larger animals. I have a pair which I use sometimes - I can use my fingers as a hook for the animal straight into a bucket or bag.

There is no standard for adder handling - there is no fail safe method all have risks. I remember that people have told me that a double glove is what researchers used in the 1970's - a light weight glove covered with a motorcycle gloves - over 500 adders were handled no bites - which was funny as the person then at his new home stepped on an adder in sandles while cutting a hedge....d'oh

Wouldnt the companies responsibility just be to give you the equipment to use and then it would be down to what techniques you use to collect adders - there are many ways of safely collecting adders (young and adult) as you will find that some situations may call for different actions - I used an old towel to pick up a neonate adder when I didnt expect to find the animal - I placed the towel over it and picked the whole thing up and placed it into my bucket.

Another method that I have found to be successful for neonates is 'tubing'. You can easily coax a neonate into a tube by using a gloved hand over it to clam it and then it can be offered a nice escape route into a tube - obtained from aquarium shops - once the snake is inside the tube then it can be deposited into a bucket or bag - the snake then escapes from the tube into the bag or bucket. I find that using gloves reduces your sensitivity and so injuries can occur to the small snake so this may help reduce this.

JC



Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 1:29pm

 

PS adder fangs can penetrate arms and so the american gloves would be the only ones to protect from this - as the inside is apparently made from kevlar

JC



Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 1:54pm

I used to use thick veterinary gloves for handling cats when I was vet nurse, much scarier beasts than adders when they are in a bad mood!

I guess hooking up grumpy adders with them might be worth a try. I usually find though that with a bare hand you actually feel more in control and the whole operation is less stressful for both the snake and the handler, I've found myself having to take a gauntlet off to get proper control of an adder before securing it in a bucket or bag.

Nice tip Jon regarding tubing neos.

PS thanks for giving me the confidence to handle adders again



Posted By: timbadger
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2006 at 3:27pm

The tip with the tubing is good many thanks.

Im glad that ive recieved the sort of answers that i hoped for, was starting to think that maybe i was not being reasonable with work, athough they are not moving about this claiming that its just something we have to do for the insurance. Im thinking its all getting very silly i cant use the gloves they are to hot in summer, distracting, irritating, reduce the efficiency of capture effort oh and did i mention expensive (hmm guese who had a nice day at work today) but know that if im 'discovered' not using them im in for an ear-full.

Ah well...

 

Many thanks i must say the responses ive had and speed that they have occured have been great, for this and other posts.



Posted By: -LAF
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2006 at 8:31am
It's a good question this one. I'll guess that the american gloves are the ones made by midwest custom products, which do indeed seem rattler proof. Which, let's face it, is probably overkill for an adder. I've seen the gardening /falconry type gauntlets demonstrated as effectively stopping a moderately sized adder with little problem. But then they're not made, and therefor not guarenteed, for this sort of work. Saying that, if it will stop a p***ed off Gyr falcon, I wouldn't worry about an adder. Ditto the veterinary gloves. The concern, I suppose, is that if a raptor or cat claw just manages to break the skin slightly, it's not a medical emergency, while with an adder it could be.

Given the choice, I'd take a decent snake hook out over a glove everytime. Tailing seems the simplest and least stressful method to me, and for close examination I don't think that anything yet devised beats tubing. Where gloves would look to be ideal is for quick examintaions where tubing would be overly laborious, or perhaps when presented with multiple adders under one tin where you wouldn't want to stick your hand in. But then everyone has their own preffered method of doing things.

Just some thoughts, Lee.



-------------
Lee Fairclough


Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2006 at 8:49am

 

The mid west gloves are just veterinary gloves - check the label - the gloves can be used effectively for catching adders - putting your hand over the animal to keep it still and then scooping the animal up with another hand.

Another way of catching adders would be to use a pillow or snake proofed bag - use a gloved hand inside the bag catch the snake and then pull your hand out of the bag turning it inside out the animal is then inside the bag - tie the bag up and place in a safe hard container - once the animal is calm you can then use a snake hook, tube to examine the snake take measurements etc and release

My record collection of adders was four under one tin plus a grass snake and two slowworms - a quick tail grap and drop into a bucket is what I used to get two adders at a time one in each hand while the cover object was held up by an assistant....

JC

 



Posted By: djp_phillips
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2006 at 1:44pm
The Adders fangs are not that long (compared to Rattlers...) so gloves
don't need to be too thick...

-------------
Reptiles & Amphibians of France:
http://www.herpfrance.com - www.herpfrance.com

European Field Herping Community:
http://www.euroherp.com - www.euroherp.com


Posted By: Dan Kane
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2006 at 12:25pm
I think gardening gloves or thicker will provide enough protection from an Adder bite.

-------------
Dan



www.randacumbria.moonfruit.com


Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2006 at 12:48pm

 

Well best of luck let us know when you end up in hospital with an adder bite - well I have had that experience an ungloved hand picking up a warm large female D'oh

I still prefer to use bare hand with snake hook

 

regards

 

Jon



Posted By: Dan Kane
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2006 at 12:57pm
Hard luck mate

-------------
Dan



www.randacumbria.moonfruit.com


Posted By: djp_phillips
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2006 at 2:09pm
well, I've been bitten many times, I still prefer NO protection,
just being 100 % natural with the snake, because belive it or not, you CAN
get a very unique feeling into the snake and make it feel calme

-------------
Reptiles & Amphibians of France:
http://www.herpfrance.com - www.herpfrance.com

European Field Herping Community:
http://www.euroherp.com - www.euroherp.com


Posted By: Dan Kane
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2006 at 2:54pm
With thick gloves, you can't feel how hard you're gripping the snake, and you may hurt it.

-------------
Dan



www.randacumbria.moonfruit.com


Posted By: djp_phillips
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2006 at 2:59pm
although without gloves it can be dangerous, i still prefer it

-------------
Reptiles & Amphibians of France:
http://www.herpfrance.com - www.herpfrance.com

European Field Herping Community:
http://www.euroherp.com - www.euroherp.com


Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2006 at 1:07pm

 

Of course Tony tubing would only be useful if people are taking measurements etc from the animal - some people are just capturing animals to remove from threatened sites - and the quicker the better I would suppose - so the best thing is to get the animal into a secure container or bag - best way by the tail with snake hook supporting body.

People have to be careful over the tube size as adders can double back on themselves and actually get stuck!

but the method is really good and I learnt it from you tony at the Marwell meeting a few years back

Jon



Posted By: photoherper
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2006 at 5:18pm
PLEASE listen to Tony Phelps.......Don't ever free handle any vemomous snake. Its stupid and it always ends up in adverse press. Personally if it wasnt for the bad press it would be really funny if all the new boys/girls on the block got a real bite to teach them that herping cannot be bought through a quick field course or meaningless letters after there names.


Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2006 at 5:33pm

 

Excuse me,

Free handling (tailing) adders is probably the safest way to get them into a vessel such as a tube - which can cause problems if they double back on themselves and get stuck!

Bagging is another perfectly safe method - using a large butterfly net to place an adder when first captured - even using those heavy gaunlets can be used to provide a human arm  'hook' - to gently place adders back into their habitat after information has been collected on the animals.

I may only have 6 years experience of handling adders but I do feel I need to assess each catching situation on its own merits

Tubes are not always the easiest things to coax an animal into

JC



Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2006 at 4:34am

I thought free handling was when you let the animal pass through your hands like you might a grass snake? In which case I agree with Tony's comment that anyone doing it deserves a bite. A quick 'google' will reveal a number of accounts of UK adder bites where inexperienced handlers allowed animals to move freely in the hands and were subsequently repaid for their stupidity!

I would not class tailing for the purposes of securing the animal in a tube, bucket or bag etc as free handling or am I missing something?



Posted By: Wolfgang Wuster
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2006 at 5:26am
Gemma is correct IMO.

"Free-handling" is the entirely unrestrained handling of snakes without trying to keep any particular part of the snake away from you.

Tailing, on the other hand, is a controlled way of handling a snake that is intended to keep your bits out of reach of the business end of the animal. Obviously, with some snakes, this method is grossly unsafe, but with adders, it is indeed a generally safe standard method, as most people here will know.

Real free-handling is just asking for a bite - I have had too many harmless snakes (incuding some that supposedly never ever bite, according to the books) coil contentedly around my fingers and hands, only to suddenly turn round and go *chomp* without apparent reason. With a hamrless snake, this is mildly annoying, with a venomous snake, it would be asking for a Darwin Award and intense posthumous embarrassment.

Glib statements that one has had many bites but doesn't worry about them are not exactly signs of good handling skills (would you want to go for a drive with someone who boasts about how many car crashes he/she has had?). Moreover, multiple bites are an excellent way of developing a venom allergy that could potentially lead to a rapidly fatal anaphylactic shock after one bite too many. Don't become a statistic, and, more importantly, don't become a negative, anti-adder newspaper headline!

Cheers,

Wolfgang

-------------
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/


Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2006 at 1:17pm

 

Sorry my mistake - I always tail any adder that I need to capture with a snake hook (a small one) and get them into a bag - I never let the animal pass through my hands without gloves (those american gloves are perfect for this) thought you do not grip the animal too hard - you support the animal with your gloved fingers - the adder is non aggressive and if it has been calmed down in a bag or covered vessel then they tend to coil up in a gloved hand - once you are finished with the animal it can be liberated at the point of capture.

With the protocol for the Make the adder count most surveys would not require capturing any of the adders you see - reminder send in any counts for 2005 to HCT!

 

 



-------------
Report your sightings to the Record Pool http://recordpool.org.uk" rel="nofollow - http://arguk.org/recording


Posted By: jopedder
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2006 at 6:02am

I've read this thread with interest, and wondered what forum members would consider using (in the way of gloves, hooks or bare hands) for handling grass snakes. 

Are hooks useful for getting hold of active grass snakes, I would imagine that when disturbed they can make away at quite a pace, and getting a hook safely under them could be difficult.

I've had a look at the hooks on sale at Alana, one looks like the traditional metal hook and the other looks like one of those litter picking claws.  Has anyone used one of these?

Slightly nervously approaching a situation where I may need to handle grassies,

Jo



Posted By: herpetologic2
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2006 at 6:34am

 

Bare hands, or if you are surveying near bramble, nettles etc then a garden glove would be useful to prevent any stratches, cuts and stings - a long sleeved top would also help when you are diving into bramble after a large grassie!

The litter picker thingy is not worth using on british snakes - using a snake hook on a grass snake is also not necessary but of course you have to catch them first - I regularly go and search for grass snakes at my local study area by visual survey and when spotted I normally catch the animal by hand - so far I have caught 9 out of 12 spotted - two were fleeting glimpse encounters and another got into a large pond with no chance of catching -

Regards

 

Jon



Posted By: jopedder
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2006 at 6:42am
Thanks Jon, what i'm most conserned about is distressing the animals, the grass snakes i've encountered before have always made a quick dash away from me, but i've not been interested in catching them before.  I take it that you do need to dive for them when spotted, or are encounters more usually along the adder lines, where you can sneak up on them whilst they are basking?


Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2006 at 6:52am

Bare hands, a hook would not help at all and with gloves you will likely lose any feel. Hooks are useful for controlling the head of adders and supporting the body whilst they are tailed. A grassy would most likely wrap itself around the hook.

Just believe and grab.. it works! Though grassies may struggle initially, if you keep a firm hold by the time they have skunked you they usually calm down and can be freely handled until release. If you need to catch them in any numbers.. use cover objects, it does take a long time for grass snakes to make use of them though at many sites.

If your still in doubt I'm sure someone on here would go out with you and show you how it is done.



Posted By: jopedder
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2006 at 7:13am

I guess the bit that I'm not looking forward too is when I've got the animal in my hands and it is struggling.  Slow worms can really freak out, and I have in my head that I'll be holding a meter long snake whipping about trying to get free.  Although, as there is no risk of tail shed with grassies then the risk of them harming themselves while they calm down must be fairly minimal. 

When you say to keep a firm hold, do you hold them against the ground when you have 'believed and grabbed' (might become a useful mantra!) or in the air, against your body? 

And one for the health and safety form - being bitten is pretty unlikely and no worse than a domestic cat bite, right?

Thanks,



Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2006 at 7:41am

You want them off the ground ASP.. else they will get their heads and forebody in the undergrowth.. no choice then but to release them as trying to pull them out backwards will very likely damage them.

Best grab and lift, then let the snake coil around your hand, hold firm (not tight just enough that you have control) and after an initial thrash they will calm down. I usually do this at arms length, though I personally quite like the smell of grass snakes most people don't

A cat bite is about a million times worse than being snagged by a grassy, trust me I was once hospitalised by a cat! Grass snakes very very rarely bite in any case but it is no more than a few pin pricks that tend to bleed a bit more than you would expect, it really isn't an issue, your are much more likely to snag yourself on brambles whilst catching them than be injured by the snake.

Believe and grab, believe and grab etc



Posted By: Suzi
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2006 at 7:46am
When you lift a tin up with adders and grass snakes under the latter will be off pretty quickly. Adders hang around or move more slowly off. A tin, or other cover, with just a grass snake under requires you to pounce pretty quickly - two person job really, one for cover holding and one to do the grabbing - and yes they do a fair bit of squirming and you will be covered in their smell. I hold them out from my body as it's easier to look at them. If you are uncomfortable holding a slow worm you might never be comfortable holding snakes. I don't touch many snakes but I've been doing it since I was a kid and it's just one of those things you get used to after a while.  Perhaps best if you were to squat or sit down with the snake so it didn't have far to go if it slithered out of your grip. Maybe dropping them doesn't do much harm but it would be kinder to have them nearer the ground if you're unsure of your grip.

-------------
Suz


Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2006 at 8:16am

Hi Suz, I rarely miss a grass snake under cover objects without any help.

You just need to be really sure there are no adders and do not hesitate, most grass snakes will be coiled and there is a moment whilst they sit there thinking... hmmmm who lifted the roof off my house.. by then they are in the hand  

It just comes from with confidence I guess and picking the right conditions. I would agree that sitting of kneeling for ACO capture can be very helpful. I have a technique now that where adder are likely to be around my left hand is gloved, I have a hook handy and as I lift the tin with my gloved hand the other hand is already sweeping across to grab anything whilst a scan for any stripey ones, works for me

I would highly recommend using corrugated bitumen, one more advantage over traditional tins is that you can 'roll' the object back slowly, revealing each animal in turn.

 



Posted By: jopedder
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2006 at 8:44am
Thanks for all the advice.  I'll let you know how I get on.


Posted By: *SNAKE*
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2006 at 6:00pm

HI jonathan if your still unsure ill go with you ( once bitten  )

if your not to far away  



-------------
PAUL SMITH     



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