the online meeting place for all who love our amphibians and reptiles
Home Page Live Forums Archived Forums Site Search Identify Record Donate Projects Links
Forum Home Forum Home > Herpetofauna Native to the UK > Sand Lizard
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - How about an in-situ shot?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

How about an in-situ shot?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 7891011>
Author
Message
Richard2 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 2:22pm
We're going round in circles a bit now, but still.

My concern in this debate is not with members of the forum, but with the uninitiated public. Let's say someone who sees a Sand Lizard on one of those noticeboards and is taken with the idea of going to look for them.

That said, if I wrote and asked for a license for purely recreational purposes, would they give me one, do you think? Or would I have to prove I was collecting information for accredited scientific purposes?

I think you are engaging in ethical debate, because you seem to be concerned with a principle of possible harm that goes beyond the legislation as quoted by Duncan.
Back to Top
Richard2 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 2:29pm
"Personally I view my licences as protection against potential prosecution. 

Why wouldn't I want them."

Gemma, you are engaged in professional survey work. Of course you should have a license. I've never questioned that. Professional survey work can involve trapping etc (what is ACO, by the way?). What about the occasional holiday visitor to Studland or Ainsdale?
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4341
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 2:37pm
Well you started going round in circle Richard not me lol.

 I would rather consider the public couldn't care less. However if you saw a particular insect on a noticeboard would you consider it OK to walk all over the habitat looking for them? That is what field herpetologists do isn't it?


The only legislation Duncan put forward were current definitions of what in the mind of NE constitutes disturbance via the habitat regs. That doesn't let people off of all the offences they could potentially commit whilst walking about an area frequented by Sand Lizards. All the other offences still apply. It might come as a surprise to you but I already knew about the changes to the habitat regs at the start of the debate, I can't see it alters anything at all. It was a magistrate understands by the word disturbance that will count.

Again I'll state why wouldn't you want a licence that protects against fines of up to £5000 or six months imprisonment? 

As for holidays, so it is OK to speed on motorways occasionally but as long as you don't make a habit of it?

I can honestly say I have never and never will set out to look for sand lizards without a licence holder present or before obtaining a current licence myself. 

That's all I can say Richard. If you are not convinced there is little else I can add.



Edited by GemmaJF - 17 Dec 2013 at 2:40pm
Back to Top
Richard2 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 2:59pm
"I would rather consider the public couldn't care less. However if you saw a particular insect on a noticeboard would you consider it OK to walk all over the habitat looking for them"

That's the nub of it. Quite a lot of the public probably has a general interest in wildlife which is put into practice occasionally, on holidays and so on. For some, especially children,  the interest develops, and even becomes a passion. That's how it started for many on the forum, I would think. I value that passion. I want it to be nourished, not shut down through misplaced by fear of the law.

If I saw an insect on a noticeboard, I might well want to look for it, yes, but I would want to know how to do so responsibly.

Would you really prefer the general public to be uncaring?

What is the status of the Habs Regs, then? I understood from Duncan that they were approved by the EU commission.
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4341
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 3:07pm
There are plenty of ways of introducing children to wildlife without disturbing our rarest reptile species Richard. Try a grass snake or a common lizard for example.

I'm all for you nourishing the public's interest.

Just please do not advise people on this forum that is OK to go out and purposely survey for sand lizards without a licence. It is not OK.  You have already on previous pages stated that if you were to kill one during your activities it would be kind of trivial, could have been done by anyone.

We had a similar poster on here a while back that claimed torch surveys for GCN did not require a licence. 

It's just really bad advice in my opinion.




Back to Top
MancD View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MancD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

It is actually NE's total inability to prosecute under the current legislation that makes my blood boil, rather than the fact one ought to have a licence before spending a lot of time around protected species.
 
It's actually the Police's role to prosecute offences under the Habitats Regulations and Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. We can and do assist the Wildlife Crime Officers if they request assistance. Some forces have these, others don't, some forces use ecologists to help them.
 
The exceptions are if it is a protected site (SSSI etc), or if NE has issued a licence (development or class licence for surveying etc etc), in which case NE is the enforcement body.
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4341
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by MancD MancD wrote:

Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

It is actually NE's total inability to prosecute under the current legislation that makes my blood boil, rather than the fact one ought to have a licence before spending a lot of time around protected species.
 
It's actually the Police's role to prosecute offences under the Habitats Regulations and Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. We can and do assist the Wildlife Crime Officers if they request assistance. Some forces have these, others don't, some forces use ecologists to help them.
 
The exceptions are if it is a protected site (SSSI etc), or if NE has issued a licence (development or class licence for surveying etc etc), in which case NE is the enforcement body.

I entirely agree, thank you for the correction as it was a rather clumsy statement on my part. 

I will correct it to:

It is actually NE's total inability to have any useful role under the current legislation that makes my blood boil, rather than the fact one ought to have a licence before spending a lot of time around protected species.

There that is much better. Wink
Back to Top
MancD View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MancD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 3:36pm
I understand that you enjoy these debates Gemma, but it is comments like that when people are simply trying to offer helpful and constructive advice that may be why the volume of traffic on here has dropped over recent times.
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4341
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 3:44pm
Oh come on that was obviously meant as humour. Do lighten up a bit.

I'm sure the reason traffic has dropped has more to do with Facebook than my presence on the forums. Though I'm more than happy to go away again, as in fact I had done during the time the site started to become quieter and quieter. 
Back to Top
Richard2 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 3:44pm
You misrepresent me, Gemma. I said that I thought it vanishingly unlikely, in the case of someone watching carefully. I also said that I hated the thought. But, yes, in the circumstances you outlined - a gravid female being trodden on by mistake while concealed - it could happen to anyone using the heath for recreation. Extremely unlikely, but possible. It could even happen to someone carrying a license. Ethically, it would not be trivial. Ecologically - possibly. It depends on the health of the overall population. If a buzzard eats a Sand Lizard, is that a trivial event?

I was the person who suggested that torching might not be illegal. NE and Duncan have both said that there is some doubt on this point.

I am not sure that I am advising anyone. I have been questioning the restrictive interpretation of the law, that's all, and a lot of the expert evidence turns out not to support that interpretation, though you dismiss that evidence. People must make their own decisions.

Richard
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 7891011>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.06
Copyright ©2001-2016 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.