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North Wales Aesculapians

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GemmaJF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 8:23pm
It's call democracy Jason.

It is a system where the least qualified people have the power to make decisions based on whatever evidence suits them at the time.

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JaySteel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JaySteel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2013 at 8:38pm
I'm glad I wasn't at that meeting. When you can't get these types people to see sense the burning desire to grab hold of them and ring their scrawny necks would become over-whelming! 
There is so much ugliness in this world that fighting to preserve something beautiful has to be worth it. And to me these snakes are beautiful.

Jason
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will View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote will Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 7:17am
I am not surprised; it is simply a box-ticking exercise and these snakes represent the softest of soft targets to allow the beaurocrats to continue in their posts.  I am hopeful that a chronic lack of funding faced by the Zoos will make capture programmes unworkable, but we shall have to see.  Sad to see that the most politically expedient decision has triumphed over the ecological facts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wolfgang Wuster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 10:43am
It is one of those unfortunate situations where different parties apply different principles.

I can certainly see the point of view of the invasive species people who have a hard time swallowing the line that zoos should be able to let animals escape, establish themselves, and then decide whether they like them or not.

And clearly, beyond the biological reality that they would be extremely unlikely to have a significant impact even if they did spread, our perceptions here are coloured by the fact that we all happen to like Aesculapian snakes. Problem is, I am sure there are plenty of people who like grey squirrels as well....

That said, it is interesting to note that by and large virtually all herpetologists in the UK, including well-known academics specialising in conservation biology (which I don't, so I don't count!), and indeed even CCW, are pretty relaxed about them being there so long as they get monitored, and the whole thing is driven by DEFRA's Non-native Species Secretariat for those political and philosophical reasons.

I had a chat with the Welsh Mountain Zoo, who pointed out that if they removed the snakes, presumably ownership would thereby return to them, and the ultimate fate of the snakes would also be their decision - which increases hopes of a better fate than mass "euthanasia".

In the meantime, here's something to mull over while pondering the politics of non-native species whilst stumbling over dozens of deliberately but perfectly legally introduced aliens in your favourite reptile ex-hotspot...


(stolen from SARG web site)
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/
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Caleb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caleb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Wolfgang Wuster Wolfgang Wuster wrote:

I had a chat with the Welsh Mountain Zoo, who pointed out that if they removed the snakes, presumably ownership would thereby return to them, and the ultimate fate of the snakes would also be their decision

But they would fall foul of the Conservation (Natural Habitats, &c.) (Amendment) Regulations 2007


which make it illegal to take Aesculapian snakes from the wild, or to possess wild-caught specimens.

Will be interesting to see if DEFRA/CCW are willing to turn a blind eye to this, or will issue a licence- and if so, what conditions the licence would specify...
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Wolfgang Wuster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wolfgang Wuster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 11:23am
The possession issue would quite possibly cause problems in terms of rehoming them (I have to have a licence just to have scale clippings for genetic analysis....), particularly to individuals. Presumably Zoos have some sort of general exemption?

My understanding is that the prohibition on removal from the wild does not apply to the species outside its natural home range.

It's all an interesting minefield of not necessarily very joined-up bits of legislation, so I am sure some interesting discussions will be had...
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/
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will View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote will Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 11:34am
don't get me started on pheasants, Wolfgang - almost as bad as domestic cats, and surely responsible for dealing the death blow to many already fragemented and vulnerable reptile populations (eg Adders in Oxfordshire).  Wonder if anyone has done formal research into pheasant impact on reptile populations?
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Wolfgang Wuster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wolfgang Wuster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 11:40am
Would love to know, but not aware of anything.
Wolfgang Wüster

School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor

http://pages.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/
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Caleb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caleb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Wolfgang Wuster Wolfgang Wuster wrote:

The possession issue [...] Presumably Zoos have some sort of general exemption?

I'm guessing not, given that the 1994 Regulations list 'protecting any zoological or botanical collection' as a valid reason for granting a licence for possession etc.

Originally posted by Wolfgang Wuster Wolfgang Wuster wrote:

My understanding is that the prohibition on removal from the wild does not apply to the species outside its natural home range.

On reflection, yes, I agree. The capture/killing offence refers to 'a European protected species', and the 1994 definition of 'European Protected Species' (applying only to those species with 'natural range' in GB) persists through the 2007 amendment.

The possession/sale offence applies to 'any species listed in [...] the Habitats Directive', so clearly applies to all those species, no matter if they're resident in GB.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Noodles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2013 at 12:37pm

The true definition of ‘in the wild’ is actually a very interesting question to be asking here. What defines a wild habitat and when does a habitat cease to be wild? Do habitats under human control constitute wild habitats? If not, do bats roosting in houses or newts residing in grazed or cultivated landscapes truly exist ‘in the wild’?

It is likely that the distinction can be drawn when an animal is domesticated; otherwise what use is the Habitats Directive. I would suggest that any animal listed in Annexe 4 of the Directive, and not under direct human control is strictly ‘in the wild’. Which poses the question; after what period of time does an introduced EPS cease to be under direct human control? How do we define natural range when the Directive refers to it as being within the European territory?  At the very least, the offspring of an introduced EPS would surely be classed as wild and, if not, why not?

Can a licence to kill these animals be legal? It's ridiculous that people are even humoring this let alone considering it seriously.

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