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How did Edible Frogs Originate?

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Matt79 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Oct 2012 at 8:52pm

I have heard that Edible Frogs are a hybrid of the Marsh Frog and the Pool Frog.  Is the Edible Frog still recognised as a distinct species?  I wasn't sure how the frog was classified nowadays.

As Edible Frogs were introduced from France to the UK there must have obviously been very large populations in France, so the species must have started at a very early point when the two different frog species bred.
 
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GemmaJF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2012 at 9:24pm
Hi Matt,

In brief, the Pool Frog and Marsh Frog had common ancestors which were split during the ice ages.

Though the populations became evolutionarily divergent they remained similar enough to create fertile hybrids.

There are no 'pure' edible frog populations, what tends to happen is the female edible frogs breed with males from one of the other two species.

The concept is known as the 'green frog complex' so a google search of that will bring up a number of articles. There is a fairly good article on Wiki about it:


It was actually Marsh frogs and Pool frogs that were introduced to the UK, not Edible frogs.




Edited by GemmaJF - 01 Oct 2012 at 9:26pm
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AGILIS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AGILIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2012 at 7:21am
lOAD OF RUBBISH THEY ESCAPED FROM A BOWL OF SOUP OUT OF A FROGGY RESTEURANT ON A KENTISH LAYBY ON THE A2 NEAR DOVER KEITH

Edited by AGILIS - 02 Oct 2012 at 7:24am
   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID
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Caleb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caleb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2012 at 10:19am
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

There are no 'pure' edible frog populations, what tends to happen is the female edible frogs breed with males from one of the other two species.

Apparently a few 'pure' edible frog populations do exist, composed of triploid animals.

Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

It was actually Marsh frogs and Pool frogs that were introduced to the UK, not Edible frogs.

There are introduced edible frogs in the UK- the 'Tracing Aliens' paper identified several populations in the UK where esculenta occur along with other species, and one population with esculenta only.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2012 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by AGILIS AGILIS wrote:

lOAD OF RUBBISH THEY ESCAPED FROM A BOWL OF SOUP OUT OF A FROGGY RESTEURANT ON A KENTISH LAYBY ON THE A2 NEAR DOVER KEITH

LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2012 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by Caleb Caleb wrote:

Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

There are no 'pure' edible frog populations, what tends to happen is the female edible frogs breed with males from one of the other two species.

Apparently a few 'pure' edible frog populations do exist, composed of triploid animals.

Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

It was actually Marsh frogs and Pool frogs that were introduced to the UK, not Edible frogs.

There are introduced edible frogs in the UK- the 'Tracing Aliens' paper identified several populations in the UK where esculenta occur along with other species, and one population with esculenta only.





Well yes but it was meant as a general explanation and not a scientific analysis Caleb, there are always exceptions to any rule.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2012 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

Hi Matt,

In brief, the Pool Frog and Marsh Frog had common ancestors which were split during the ice ages.

Though the populations became evolutionarily divergent they remained similar enough to create fertile hybrids.

There are no 'pure' edible frog populations, what tends to happen is the female edible frogs breed with males from one of the other two species.

The concept is known as the 'green frog complex' so a google search of that will bring up a number of articles. There is a fairly good article on Wiki about it:


It was actually Marsh frogs and Pool frogs that were introduced to the UK, not Edible frogs.


 
Thanks.  This is really interesting.  I didn't realise that a female Edible Frog could breed with a male from one of the other two species.  The Edible Frog was once recognised as a separate species to the Marsh Frog and Pool Frog, wasn't it?  As I mentioned in my first post, wasn't it only in recent years that the Edible Frog has been officially recognised as a hybrid?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2012 at 10:09pm
Yep as I understand it the Edible frog was thought of as a separate species for a long time before being recognised as a fertile hybrid

The usual or most common system in the UK and Western Europe is the 'L-E system' made up of Pool Frogs and Edible Frogs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herpetologic2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 9:39am
Well all water frogs were considered to be 'Edible' hence the name used in text over the centuries. It is why the Norfolk Pool frogs were not considered important as they were all just introduced.

The Marsh Frog is a local name given to the water frogs introduced into Kent in the 1930s. It is also known as the Lake Frog - its old latin name was literally 'Laughing Frog' Rana ridibunda

There have been many waves of introduction of European Water Frogs - the ones in Kent are from Hungary - there are southern pool frogs in the north of Kent - Isle of Sheppey. In fact it is true that any of the 14 species can hybridise with each other. where species from far flung places have been brought together through the amphibian trade then interesting hybrids may have been produced which would normally not exist naturally.

Edible frogs are fertile when mating with either of the parent species due to the genetics. However in edible frogs which are triploidy (I think that's the right spelling) have an extra set of chromosomes they can mate together and still produce offspring.

The 'marsh' frog type is by far the most successful coloniser and there are signs that it is now moving north by its own steam and of course by people collecting frogs and tadpoles and putting them into ponds and lakes.

A well known fishing outfit its name sake has even published an article of how he helped his fish by placing giant frog tadpoles into his fishing lake in Hullbridge, Essex from animals collected in Kent.

He is quoted as saying ' I hope I have not admitted to something which I need a license for?' or along those lines. He was referring to movement licenses say of fish little does he know he has technically committed an offence under the WCA 1981. The movement of amphibians across the UK is a potential problem but how do you resolve it?

There are pros and cons to this story and currently there are more positives than negatives - BUT this is NOT a reason to spread these species. The most important thing is to report sightings so we can then monitor the spread and status of these species. 

It may become very important around Norfolk where the native water frog is being reestablished in a secret location. If any non natives get in there then the project maybe finished - or will it?

This is probably where a zero tolerance zone is needed to keep the non natives away from these natives. It is also important to get the population going and introduce new colonies from that population to provide a healthy metapopulation.







Report your sightings to the Record Pool http://arguk.org/recording
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote will Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2012 at 10:00am
re Jon's last point I think I pointed out in an old thread somewhere that the reintroduction of northern clade pool frogs to the UK would be a victim of its own success, ironically, if populations spread and became established in non-native green frog areas, with which it then interbreeds.  How the law would treat the resulting hybrids is also an interesting question, rather similar to great (ie northern) x italian crested newt hybrids.  Maybe the back half could be protected and the legs could be removed and eaten?  (tasteless 'joke' I know...)

I'm not even sure that the law currently makes a distinction between northern clade (native) and southern (non-native) pool frogs?
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