baby snakes

Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic

   -not a reference to the Frank Zappa song, but an observation, as follows:

over the last few weeks I have found baby snakes of each of our native species which look to all intents and purposes as if they have just hatched/been born.  I guess this could mean delayed birth in smooth snake and adder, and perhaps early egg laying in grass snake (as Rob has argued in the past) OR it could mean that last year's babies (at least some of them) have not grown at all since emergence back in March due to rubbish weather.  At any rate, they were all exactly the same size as neonates, ie around 14cm for the smooth snake, 15 for the grass snake and 12 for the adder.  Has anyone else found unusually tiny snakes this season?  What do others think the reason for these tiny critters at this time of year might be?

Cheers

Will

Author	Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic
will Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830	Post Options Post Reply Quote will Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: baby snakes Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 8:53am
	-not a reference to the Frank Zappa song, but an observation, as follows: over the last few weeks I have found baby snakes of each of our native species which look to all intents and purposes as if they have just hatched/been born. I guess this could mean delayed birth in smooth snake and adder, and perhaps early egg laying in grass snake (as Rob has argued in the past) OR it could mean that last year's babies (at least some of them) have not grown at all since emergence back in March due to rubbish weather. At any rate, they were all exactly the same size as neonates, ie around 14cm for the smooth snake, 15 for the grass snake and 12 for the adder. Has anyone else found unusually tiny snakes this season? What do others think the reason for these tiny critters at this time of year might be? Cheers Will

sussexecology Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 30 Sep 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 411	Post Options Post Reply Quote sussexecology Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 10:28pm
	Nice one Will I've had similar size grass snakes to that bottom picture (almost a spitting image of one I found last week). No pictures though - I wasn't fast enough on the camera but I need a photo anyway for the report so will upload one once i've got it. RobV will come up with an answer I'm sure (as I'm not that keen on expressing my opinions on here due to some backlash from someone, which has put me off posting on here lately). Regards SE Reptile Ecologist

herpetologic2 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Forum Coordinator Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1511	Post Options Post Reply Quote herpetologic2 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 9:51am
	Who knows, cannot really tell anything on size of these animals. I feel that the lousy weather means that the animals are not growing as they cannot find the food they need - I assume that with this weather they are not active enough perhaps. Sorry to hear that you have been put off posting on here - though not sure who you are without any name....

AGILIS Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1689	Post Options Post Reply Quote AGILIS Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 11:39am
	Like the smoothie Will is it a Purbeckian? keith
	LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID

will Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830	Post Options Post Reply Quote will Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 2:13pm
	Hi Keith - nope, this one from a site near Ringwood. Hi Jon - sure, no way to tell with only 3 baby snakes, just wondered what others had noticed - especially those of you who are consultants and therefore may come across statistically significant samples of young snakes. Can't help feeling sorry for them if they are last years and still so tiny! Hi SussexEcol - it's certainly a shame if we can't speculate without fear of being bitten - there's so much left to find out, IMHO...

GemmaJF Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 4359	Post Options Post Reply Quote GemmaJF Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 4:18pm
	It's a bit of a double dilemma Will. On the one hand we have the rotten weather this year for herps, so one could easily think they are last years and have not grown much. But looking back, we had that wonderful late Indian Summer last year. So would we expect them to have grown more before hibernation than usual? In which case it would have compensated a bit and they would be normal size? The literature states though that neonate adder do not feed before the first hibernation but survive on the remains of the yolk sack. (Not sure for other species?) So in that case one might expect them not to have had any benefit at all of last years late warm weather. In fact they may have just been burning off what nutrition they had. They then come out of hibernation, the weather is pants and they can't feed or metabolise so they remain tiny until now. That is one scenario. The late warm weather last year could also point towards second mating and late broods (or early ones this year) one would guess, but surely the conditions wouldn't have favoured early births, hatching this year? Though I have doubts about this (not saying that Rob is wrong, I just would like to see evidence then I would readily accept the theory). As it is there always remains more questions than answers which is why I'm always a little reluctant to accept the explanation of late matings whilst there remains many other factors that could result in these small for the season animals several of us seem to be observing. Still that isn't to say that individual animals are not the result of all both or any idea put forward. Certainly I think odd weather over the past few years is the key factor, but the exact process needs a lot more understanding. Would it possible at your sites Will to do mark recapture of this little guys over a few seasons and see if that sheds some light on the matter? Hope it wasn't me that upset SE, as Will says it would be a shame not to speculate or on the other hand blow speculation out of the water on here as it's all part of a greater process of understanding.

sussexecology Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 30 Sep 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 411	Post Options Post Reply Quote sussexecology Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 6:26pm
	No worries, on the "upset thing" I think it was a misunderstanding on my line manager's point of view as we had a bizarre message, but all sorted and all is well. I haven't been posting recently as too busy. In the last few weeks, I've been finding smaller grass snakes, which I assumed were from last year. However, i wouldn't want to say whether it was one from this year but interested to find out. I do like your suggestion of mark-recapture methods over a few seasons as might shed some light. How does this year compare with last year in terms of young animals being spotted? If they are from this year, could this be an example of a species that is adapting to climate change or a shift in our weather conditions?? The temperatures are much lower than they normally are at the moment, which I'm really pleased about as it means that the survey window isn't restricted to a few hours in the mornings yet . Gemma et al- you would never upset me! got to get back to work now so laters Regards SE Reptile Ecologist Edited by sussexecology - 19 Jul 2012 at 10:03pm

will Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1830	Post Options Post Reply Quote will Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 6:32pm
	Hi Gemma Thanks for your considered reply as ever. There could be a third possibility, at least for adder and smooth snake, which is the one that I am really intrigued by, and that is that some females overwinter whilst gravid, having mated at the usual time, and then give birth at various times the following season (which could explain SOME tiny snakes seen in early summer). Don't know if any female grassies could retain eggs over the winter, seems a bit less likely, but again, who knows? and that, for me, is why it's still worth asking questions about our 'familiar' reptiles! Oh, and I hope things chill out, Hetty! Cheers Will

GemmaJF Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 Location: Essex Status: Offline Points: 4359	Post Options Post Reply Quote GemmaJF Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 7:23pm
	That does seem like a possibility Will, I was kind of thinking of it when I said 'late' matings, the idea being that an animal could remain gravid over the winter. Isn't sperm retention recorded in adders though? That is another possibility that the mating occurs the year before yet the animals are ready to produce the young really early season? Not sure though how they could be far ahead of animals who mated that year, maybe by a few weeks in really good conditions at most? Hetty I already reached being to old to bend over to pick up reptile refugia, you have it all wrong about consultancy btw, this is how it is meant to work: The secret of consultancy part 1: You do a few years of the donkey work, late nights, feeling exhausted from mid-February until early November, then you stop doing that and set-up as an independent ecological consultant. You only then deal with huge contracts. You carryout all the surveying personally, because this is where knowledge, experience and genius all come in very useful. For mitigation you put numerous workers on the site charging a small fortune for each and pay them a penny a day (tuppence for the better ones). You then take up flying, sit at your flying club all day talking about flying and occasionally doing a little bit of actual flying on nice days. This is all whilst your workers pay for the flying, mortgage, car collection whatever works for you. You might have to rarely answer the mobile phone if there are problems, but if they are well trained it's rare, and anyway you have to switch it off whilst actually flying so nobody can bother you then. On flying trips you can even fly over your mitigations and feel really smug all the workers are down there working their butts off whilst you are popping over to France for lunch with your snobby flying friends. You see that's the secret to it all, and it was working very very nicely until the &***%% bankers and government messed it all up. Looks like I'm back to lifting felts myself for tuppence a day next year (serves me right really) Edited by GemmaJF - 18 Jul 2012 at 7:32pm

Robert V Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1264	Post Options Post Reply Quote Robert V Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 8:44pm
	hahaha, I knew it was you!!!!!! I said to Stu, I bet that's Gemma up there in that plane flying round and round checking to see if were working! Beats CCTV eh... Anyway, like Will says, there's so much still to find out, who knows what the actual facts are. I'd heard plenty of tales of colubrids retaining sperm and self fertilising but I don't know if that's juts for caged animals. All I do know that once, on the 28th May (in some ancient year long ago forgotten) I caught a grass snake that measured smaller than a hatchling which would have meant a mating on the 23rd January (approx). And so it goes. R
	RobV