the online meeting place for all who love our amphibians and reptiles
Home Page Live Forums Archived Forums Site Search Identify Record Donate Projects Links
Forum Home Forum Home > Herpetofauna Native to the UK > Sand Lizard
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - How about an in-situ shot?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

How about an in-situ shot?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 11>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 3:07pm
There are plenty of ways of introducing children to wildlife without disturbing our rarest reptile species Richard. Try a grass snake or a common lizard for example.

I'm all for you nourishing the public's interest.

Just please do not advise people on this forum that is OK to go out and purposely survey for sand lizards without a licence. It is not OK.  You have already on previous pages stated that if you were to kill one during your activities it would be kind of trivial, could have been done by anyone.

We had a similar poster on here a while back that claimed torch surveys for GCN did not require a licence. 

It's just really bad advice in my opinion.




Back to Top
Richard2 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 2:59pm
"I would rather consider the public couldn't care less. However if you saw a particular insect on a noticeboard would you consider it OK to walk all over the habitat looking for them"

That's the nub of it. Quite a lot of the public probably has a general interest in wildlife which is put into practice occasionally, on holidays and so on. For some, especially children,  the interest develops, and even becomes a passion. That's how it started for many on the forum, I would think. I value that passion. I want it to be nourished, not shut down through misplaced by fear of the law.

If I saw an insect on a noticeboard, I might well want to look for it, yes, but I would want to know how to do so responsibly.

Would you really prefer the general public to be uncaring?

What is the status of the Habs Regs, then? I understood from Duncan that they were approved by the EU commission.
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 2:37pm
Well you started going round in circle Richard not me lol.

 I would rather consider the public couldn't care less. However if you saw a particular insect on a noticeboard would you consider it OK to walk all over the habitat looking for them? That is what field herpetologists do isn't it?


The only legislation Duncan put forward were current definitions of what in the mind of NE constitutes disturbance via the habitat regs. That doesn't let people off of all the offences they could potentially commit whilst walking about an area frequented by Sand Lizards. All the other offences still apply. It might come as a surprise to you but I already knew about the changes to the habitat regs at the start of the debate, I can't see it alters anything at all. It was a magistrate understands by the word disturbance that will count.

Again I'll state why wouldn't you want a licence that protects against fines of up to £5000 or six months imprisonment? 

As for holidays, so it is OK to speed on motorways occasionally but as long as you don't make a habit of it?

I can honestly say I have never and never will set out to look for sand lizards without a licence holder present or before obtaining a current licence myself. 

That's all I can say Richard. If you are not convinced there is little else I can add.



Edited by GemmaJF - 17 Dec 2013 at 2:40pm
Back to Top
Richard2 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 2:29pm
"Personally I view my licences as protection against potential prosecution. 

Why wouldn't I want them."

Gemma, you are engaged in professional survey work. Of course you should have a license. I've never questioned that. Professional survey work can involve trapping etc (what is ACO, by the way?). What about the occasional holiday visitor to Studland or Ainsdale?
Back to Top
Richard2 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 2:22pm
We're going round in circles a bit now, but still.

My concern in this debate is not with members of the forum, but with the uninitiated public. Let's say someone who sees a Sand Lizard on one of those noticeboards and is taken with the idea of going to look for them.

That said, if I wrote and asked for a license for purely recreational purposes, would they give me one, do you think? Or would I have to prove I was collecting information for accredited scientific purposes?

I think you are engaging in ethical debate, because you seem to be concerned with a principle of possible harm that goes beyond the legislation as quoted by Duncan.
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 2:22pm
PS Richard, it just occurred to me also why this debate rolls on and on.

Many non-licence holders consider that somehow they are being excluded.


Personally I view my licences as protection against potential prosecution. 

Why wouldn't I want them.

Makes a big difference to turn things around sometimes?


Edited by GemmaJF - 17 Dec 2013 at 2:22pm
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 2:04pm
I have not put across an ethical argument. I have put across my interpretation as a field herpetologist specializing in reptiles on what is required by the law.

But licences can easily be obtained. The majority of forum members here will hold one or more.

I can't see what is alarming about any of it. 

IF you want to spend time close to the animals that are protected under the WCA, it is a good idea to obtain a licence. What is the problem with the whole concept? 

It is actually NE's total inability to prosecute under the current legislation that makes my blood boil, rather than the fact one ought to have a licence before spending a lot of time around protected species.

It is simply untrue that licenses are issued only for scientific work.

I have at no point argued that only experts are entitled to look at the animals deliberately.

You know as well as I do that actual feel study does not consist of animals parading themselves in front of the observer for viewing. It takes hours of walking over the habitat to locate individual animals. Doing so regularly can easily invite potential offences under the WCA, so the wise get a licence.


Edited by GemmaJF - 17 Dec 2013 at 2:07pm
Back to Top
Richard2 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 1:49pm
"I still maintain that anybody regularly spending time around protected species, or purposely setting out to survey (see, visually study etc) those species should consider if they require a licence."

This idea would seem less alarming if licenses were issued for recreational purposes, and could easily be obtained on the spot from the offices at major nature reserves. The idea of some sort of Highway Code style training to go with the issue of the license seems attractive too, but I doubt that the resources would ever be provided. As long as licenses are issued only for scientific work, then you are arguing that only the experts are entitled to look at these animals deliberately. Surely that is a bit of a problem for your ethical argument, isn't it?


Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 1:32pm
I totally agree Keith, they don't have a clue, but the idea of a licence is that it allows one to undertake an activity that would be otherwise illegal. As opposed to it in any way changing the consequence of the activity. Wink One would hope though that the licensing system would at least insure that those that hold them have some basic knowledge of the species involved.




Edited by GemmaJF - 17 Dec 2013 at 1:32pm
Back to Top
AGILIS View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1689
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AGILIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2013 at 1:28pm
yes and I am one o them do la know if they are being disturbed by a licensed or non carrying person?KEITH

Edited by AGILIS - 17 Dec 2013 at 4:43pm
   LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 11>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.06
Copyright ©2001-2016 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 7.768 seconds.