the online meeting place for all who love our amphibians and reptiles
Home Page Live Forums Archived Forums Site Search Identify Record Donate Projects Links
Forum Home Forum Home > Herpetofauna Native to the UK > Adder
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Adder Reintroductions?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Adder Reintroductions?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Richard2 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2012 at 6:24pm

I entirely believe what Gemma, Sussexecology, Paul and others are saying, but I still don't understand how the attitude they describe arises. Why do the managers of conservation agencies think like this? They are supposed to be devoted to wildlife conservation; that's their mission, and presumably they went into that kind of work out of strong personal motivation; most of them, anyway. So what has gone wrong? Is it specifically reptiles and amphibians they don't care about, as compared to birds and mammals or a certain landscape-aesthetic? Have they no basic training in ecology? Are they responding to a range of assertive client-groups - bird-watchers, tourists, ramblers, government bodies - whose opinions they fear much more than those of the few people interested in reptiles?

If we are to have any chance of pushing for change, I think we need to understand a bit more about why they think as they do.
Back to Top
sussexecology View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 Sep 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 411
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sussexecology Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2012 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Paul Hudson Paul Hudson wrote:

I would also agree that adders should be given full protection is there any way we could push this forward ??Gemma I too have spoken with a N.E staff member who had designed an HLS plan that was having a detrimental effect on adders,(through grazing cattle) and one of her comments was she wasn't going to alter the plan to suit a few little snakes , left me rarther gob smacked !
 
Paul and Gemma, I would agee with you totally on full protection for adders. I'd like to see full protection for all of the widespread reptiles species too. Especially making their habitat protected too, not just the animals. This is because i totally agree with Gemma on the habitats that are destroyed by clearance work without a proper survey or mitigation carried out beforehand. Not to mention the loss of hibernation sites or egg laying sites. The loss of these areas would seriously affect the reptile populations.
 
Maybe the protection of known hibernation sites or grass snake egg laying sites would be the solution to this problem. Would be worth looking into at least.
 
Wish there was more we could do for getting this full protection, but out of our hands. At least if NE could look at protecting reptile habitats, that would be a good starting point me thinks. 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by sussexecology - 28 Jan 2012 at 5:59pm
Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2012 at 2:27pm
Though I would welcome full protection i.e. habitat protection for adder, I don't think it would make any difference.

Adder already have protection against unlawful killing. This is ignored.

The organisations I have mentioned also ride roughshod over GCN terrestrial habitat which is already protected, as well as ignoring advice (pleas) regarding adder.

The attitude is always one of 'we wont' change the plan just to suit one species' if they understood the range of species on their sites in the first place I rather think they could come up with better management schemes and we wouldn't have to champion a particular species, often out of shear desperation. Which is why it comes back for me to a prosecution. It's not that this is an isolated case, most of us have these stories to tell and until someone gets a big fine or imprisonment, they will just carry on business as usual.

We need to literally force a situation where these people carryout pre-works surveys and are made accountable. As is, far too often it a case of picking up the pieces when the damage is already done.


Edited by GemmaJF - 28 Jan 2012 at 2:30pm
Back to Top
Northern Venom View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northern Venom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2012 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Paul Hudson Paul Hudson wrote:

I would also agree that adders should be given full protection is there any way we could push this forward ??Gemma I too have spoken with a N.E staff member who had designed an HLS plan that was having a detrimental effect on adders,(through grazing cattle) and one of her comments was she wasn't going to alter the plan to suit a few little snakes , left me rarther gob smacked !


Whilst sad it doesnt surprise me!
Back to Top
Paul Hudson View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 98
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Hudson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2012 at 1:08pm
I would also agree that adders should be given full protection is there any way we could push this forward ??Gemma I too have spoken with a N.E staff member who had designed an HLS plan that was having a detrimental effect on adders,(through grazing cattle) and one of her comments was she wasn't going to alter the plan to suit a few little snakes , left me rarther gob smacked !
Paul Hudson
Back to Top
Northern Venom View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northern Venom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2012 at 9:35am
Having worked with Adders for 35 or so years the ignorance and lack of respect shown to adders has always shocked me.

Many of us old timers including Tony Phelps were expressing concern about declining populations a long time ago but these concerns were never listened to especially by the likes of NE.

I am sure many of us cannot understand why they are not given full protection.

My own opinion is that they never will.


Back to Top
GemmaJF View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GemmaJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2012 at 9:12am
I'm not in the least bit surprised by this sort of behaviour. I have experienced hostility from the very top of Wildlife Trusts right down to the workers on the ground. 

I use to think there could be a way to educate. 

Now I rather think the only way to change attitudes would be a prosecution under the WCA for unlawful killing of adder. 

This form of public embarrassment might just lead to these organisations seeking help from those who have expertise with these animals. This isn't only herp related, I know some very accomplished ecologists/scientists in varied fields who have had exactly the same experiences. Most of us now pick our battles and work with those who are willing to listen and learn. At many sites though all we can do is watch with dismay as they are trashed by the very people charged with protecting them. 

I totally agree that what is good for inverts is good for nesting birds, good for mammals and good for herps. I've never overlooked that however due to the ecology of adder in particular there is a special case for safeguarding habitat features such as hibernacula, especially during widespread clearance works.

Personally I would name and shame. I have no qualms at all in stating that EWT, the National Trust and NE have in the past all worked together in Essex to keep the doors closed and 'get things done' regardless of wildlife legislation... when it suited them. I have on record the NE team admitting the 'double standards' involved. Very much a case of NE trust the other organisations to know what they are doing, the other organisations completely ignore the WCA claiming that NE sanctioned the work and so it goes on. All organisations agree that if they actually respected the WCA they would 'get nothing done'. This isn't the case, if they were willing to accept outside help the work could be done, without killing adder, in most cases it only needs very slight modification to to the management plan, but they just don't want to know.

Effectively the adder are stripped of their protection under the WCA and I get to watch as another site is compromised. 
 
Back to Top
Richard2 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2012 at 6:17am
I find this surprising. It's a long time, admittedly, since I did any volunteering, but when I did I never saw the hostility you describe. I'd be interested to know more. What causes it, do you think?
 
For an example of the attitude we're up against, look here (third item in the column):
It is telling that even a newspaper so much concerned with injustice should carry a comment so casually and ignorantly full of species-ism, and so ignorant of ecology.
Back to Top
sussexecology View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 Sep 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 411
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sussexecology Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2012 at 3:15am
A thought just came to me in regards to conservation groups and ecology that may be important (depending on how other people feel).
Some of our team have volunteered with conservation groups in the past and found that in some groups, there are mixed feelings between conservationists and ecologists/consultants.
 
Certainly a few people here have experienced problems with "conservation volunteers" being jealous of those working in the ecological field. 
 
In one case, bitterness from other "conservation volunteers" towards an individual was so severe that they were put off volunteering for life. This person volunteered at the time because there was no work available, and needed a rest from ecological work. When I say bitterness, I mean back-stabbing, rude comments being made behind their back when they were on a task, a very uncomfortable atmosphere, bullying and turning new volunteers against this individual etc. I only know this because the individual told me about their experience and I was horrified. 
 
i don't think it's right to name the conservation group concerned either but if I was given a chance then I would because I think it was an absoltely disgusting way to treat volunteers that way, regardless of their capabilities or previous work experience.
 
I personally think the conservation group should be named and shamed, but there are other reasons why I don't want to do this, because it is also unfair on the individual concerned. I'm not sure if the staff knew what was going on, but pretty sure that they must have done. It would be quite hard not to notice things like that going on.
 
Going back to the point on adder re-introductions, has anyone drawn up a habitat suitability index for measuring the suitability of a suitable receptor site that is specific to adders. Translocations involving snakes are not always successful, and both grass snakes and adders are known to be two species which are not very tolerant of being translocated to another site. There is a reference to this in a handbook.
 
Regards
Sussex Ecology
 
Back to Top
sussexecology View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 Sep 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 411
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sussexecology Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2012 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by GemmaJF GemmaJF wrote:

The most common excuse I hear is that they are taking a holistic approach and frown upon 'single species management'.... 

Surely though any 'holistic' approach considers the basic needs of the resident wildlife before they carryout the management.. apparently not in many cases.

Tony Phelps coined the phrase 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' on here several years ago. Nothing has changed from what I see on the ground. This is now, it would be totally preventable if these 'conservation' organisations would accept outside help as just that HELP instead of criticism. 


 
 
Totally agree with you on the acceptance of outside help for these conservation organisations. But they won't and from where I am standing from, nothing has changed. There are a few of us working with S/E who moved into ecology from the conservation sector, and it's ironic that we all feel the same. Not just me then!
 
 A bit of education would go a long way I think. But then we consultants don't want to "lecture" to these conservation groups. Best way is to try and make a compromise. But we could help each other, if we really put our minds to it.
 
The basic needs of the resident wildlife
Yes, you'd think that this would be an obvious starting point. For example, I've just completed one management plan for one of our reptile receptor sites. It doesn't just focus on reptiles but on the needs of other species present such as invertebrates as well as nesting birds, which are known to be present.
 
Having said that, if these conservation organisations managed their sites for inverts and small mammals in a sympathetic manner, then they've pretty much cracked it. A sympathetic manner would be timing the management to a time of year that is going to have least impact on species and not managing huge blocks of land in any one year. Job done!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.06
Copyright ©2001-2016 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.