STOBOROUGH HYDE HEATH obliteration

GemmaJF wrote: You may feel Steve that 'education' is the way forward, but sorry I've had enough of these site trashings in the name of 'conservation'. Perhaps Wellies learnt a little there about 'the what and why' of this sort of site trashing.

So should we not educate and let no-one have a clue about UK herps? I'd like to see what their long term status is then? If you think things are bad now imagine how bad they could be?! As Iowarth pointed out, "As a general comment we should all remember that whether we are talking about HCT, RSPB, WTs, ARGs etc etc they all, irrespective of cock-ups, do have at the heart of their concerns the well being of our wildlife and its habitat. Cock-ups or not, it would all be far worse off without them". And I think the important part of this quote is "wildlife", reptiles are a part of a massive picture and as much of this massive picture needs to be considered as possible.

I also think Armata made a good point saying "It continues to be a mystery why the powers that be don't put their hands up and just admit; yes, we know we are killing reptiles, but its for the long term good". I'm not saying this makes the death of some animals ok, it should be the last option used, but if it is used, we shouldn't lose sight of the bigger picture. It would also take some serious guts to say it, and would still come in for a lot of flak, but IMO, is what is going on on the majority of sites throughout the UK. I think long-term the wildlife, not just reptiles, in these habitats will benefit.

OK Wellies, less face it you deserve better than that. Let's look at what you have said.

 

1) Am I against education regarding herps?

Um No or I wouldn't have created this site in the first place, it wasn't for the money you know!

2) Why did I react to your post the way I did?

Because I've heard the same argument over and over from land managers. Lets face it I may specialise in a small group of species, but that is because I don't like 'Jack's of all trades masters of none'. It doesn't work in ecology so that is the corner I argue. That doesn't indicate I do not have a wide interest in wildlife or a grasp of ecosystems and the wider picture.

3) Am I against management of land?

No, some of the best reptile sites I know are managed on a regular basis. Take a walk around Thetford Forest and you will see what I mean.

4) Do I beleive that the current approach to heathland restoration is in the longterm beneficial to a wide variety of species?

No I'm afraid I do not. Tony (armata) once coined the phrase on here 'throwing the baby out with the bath water'. This is very much how I see the plight of reptiles during these schemes.

We have lost the vast majority of heathland in the UK already to Development. We now see a landscape with reduced dispersal and colonisation routes.

If for example a WT decides the best way to manage Gorse at a local site is to call in a contractor, what might happen? Well it just may turnout if nobody surveyed the site that they dig up an adder hibernaculum in the process. So does that effect the wider picture? Well it may well mean site extinction for that species with little chance of recolonisation. In my view that is really tragic and becomes a key point. Unfortunately I've often heard the 'wider picture' argument put in a way that makes the event seem trivial. Fact is it isn't trivial for the adders is it! I find it hard to grasp the longterm benefit of site extinction also.

So what might they have done? Well they might have asked myself or many members of this site to survey first. Then perhaps we could have informed them of the situation and the hibernaculum and any other key adder habitat might have been preserved during the management.

That would be a good situation for all wouldn't it?

 

So why my attitude? Well because when I did tell my local WT the situation, they went and bulldozed it anyway. You see why I get a little annoyed at times perhaps. Now this isn't a one off thing at all and it makes it difficult for me to believe that really really thay care about anything other than the funding. There were GCN and Dormice there also. I educated and was shut out for causing trouble you see.

All I'm asking for is awareness and sympathetic management so we don't end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. This stuff isn't exactly rocket science either.

I have tried education. I've tried providing my services. All it got me was being shut out of the system.

So now I'm keen to 'educate' by other means.

 

Now on that 'wider picture argument', and I know it is just what you have been told so why wouldn't you believe it, show me the evidence of a single heathland restoration scheme carried out in the UK that benefitted a wide variety of species.

Not just anacdotal stuff like 'oh we see lots of xxx now', I mean a report that shows pre-management work survey data and then say within in 10 years the benefit the work actually had......

You get where I'm coming from.

 

See Steve might have even convinced me your worth talking to Wellies

Edited by GemmaJF

GemmaJF wrote: 1) Am I against education regarding herps? ...No... 2) Why did I react to your post the way I did? Because I've heard the same argument over and over from land managers. Lets face it I may specialise in a small group of species, but that is because I don't like 'Jack's of all trades masters of none'. It doesn't work in ecology so that is the corner I argue. 3) Am I against management of land? No, some of the best reptile sites I know are managed on a regular basis. 4) Do I beleive that the current approach to heathland restoration is in the longterm beneficial to a wide variety of species? No I'm afraid I do not. Tony (armata) once coined the phrase on here 'throwing the baby out with the bath water'. This is very much how I see the plight of reptiles during these schemes. We have lost the vast majority of heathland in the UK already to Development. We now see a landscape with reduced dispersal and colonisation routes. If for example a WT decides the best way to manage Gorse at a local site is to call in a contractor, what might happen? Well it just may turnout if nobody surveyed the site that they dig up an adder hibernaculum in the process. So does that effect the wider picture? Well it may well mean site extinction for that species with little chance of recolonisation. In my view that is really tragic and becomes a key point. Unfortunately I've often heard the 'wider picture' argument put in a way that makes the event seem trivial. Fact is it isn't trivial for the adders is it! I find it hard to grasp the longterm benefit of site extinction also. So what might they have done? Well they might have asked myself or many members of this site to survey first. Then perhaps we could have informed them of the situation and the hibernaculum and any other key adder habitat might have been preserved during the management. That would be a good situation for all wouldn't it? All I'm asking for is awareness and sympathetic management so we don't end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. This stuff isn't exactly rocket science either. Now on that 'wider picture argument', and I know it is just what you have been told so why wouldn't you believe it, show me the evidence of a single heathland restoration scheme carried out in the UK that benefitted a wide variety of species. ....I mean a report that shows pre-management work survey data and then say within in 10 years the benefit the work actually had...... See Steve might have even convinced me your worth talking to Wellies

Gemma

I hope your sitting down because I agree with your 4 points.

1. I'm all for education, without it I wouldn't be surveying for reptiles as actively as I am! I'm in this industry as a conservationist rather than a consultant (not that I have a probelm with consultants I'll add) so I'm looking to conserve and improve diversity on any site(s) I'm involved with.

2. I can appreciate your reaction and understand your energy with which you present your side of the argument, I honestly can. Having specialists in any industry is vital. I also believe there is a place for jack-of-all-trades within the environment industry, provided that when they need specialist advice they seek it.

3. Again I agree. Without management a lot of our habitats would have undergone massive succession and we'd have lost countless species.

4. This is the only point where we somewhat disagree. However, I do agree there are examples out there where management is having a negative impact on site biodiversity. In the same breath though, there are some good examples of heathland restoration out there, and I believe more will surface given time.

Now maybe my view on this last point is because I'm inexperienced and have little to compare to, but it is (from what I have seen in my short career) what I believe.

Finally, I'm glad Steve (many thanks Steve) has convinced you I'm worth talking to. I hope given time I can prove this further.

Wellies

Armata

Funny you should mention pine felling to restore heathland as most of my exposure to heathland restoration has been as a result of pine felling and, in terms of heathland restoration, is fantastic!

Glad I got it right, phew!!

James

Just thought I'd add a ray of optimism.

The HCT Wealdon field team, IMO do an absolutely superb job. Considering how few there are of them, and the huge areas they actively manage (although only portions of sites), what they achieve is highly impressive.

I have data which indicate quantitative success (with caveats, coz it's a complicated thing to measure).

They achieve this through careful consultation with land owners and agents, and even take on board other species' interests to find a way that suits more than just the herps.

Hats off to Mike Preston and team!