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GemmaJF
Admin Group
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 10:50am |
Well said Jason. I personally have moved progressively away from captive keeping, easy though when I have three native species of reptile living in the garden and access to adder locally.
I'm sure Chris will back me up that all those involved in captive breeding of Sand Lizards in the UK are/were keepers of 'pet' species and this is how they built up their knowledge.
I would be interested to know from Northern Venom more about adder in captivity. I know they were at one time regarded as a poor vivarium subject as they are by nature very secretive, but I'm open to being educated.
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Iowarth
Admin Group
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 743
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 11:21am |
Hi Gemma et al I agree that Jason has summed things up in this respect perfectly. While others may differ, I have never had any objection to people keeping suitable species in a suitable manner - and it is the latter which can often define the former. There are many people in this forum who are actively opposed to keeping herps in captivity BUT they must realise that this is commonplace and is likely to remain so. From a conservation point of view most animals available nowadays are captive bred - this takes one source of pressure off the animlas in the wild. Proper captive maintenance actually enhances the understanding of the animals in all respects and can also contribute to our understanding of them in the wild. So far as the Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme, Gemma is quite correct. A major contributing factor towards its success is the extensive experience of its members in keeping and breeding Lacertids. Although they are all active conservationists, all have prior experience in keeping and breeding such animals and most still do keep and breed other species. The two concepts are not, and never have been mutually exclusive - far, far from it. So far as adders are concerned, apart from temporary holding facilities, I have only ever kept them in large and secure outdoor vivaria in which they proved to be an excellent subject. As I said before, keeping in a suitable manner can often define the suitable subject. Chris
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Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
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Robert V
Senior Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1264
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 11:41am |
Chris,
Ispent 15 minutes typing out a post, only to have it wiped from the clean by some permissions notice. Shame, it was a valid point, shame the forum doesn't have a back up facility!
R
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RobV
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GemmaJF
Admin Group
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Location: Essex
Status: Offline
Points: 4359
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 12:05pm |
Rob if you have a long post, type it in word first, then cut and paste. Unfortunately no forum software is perfect and nor is the internet but by typing it in word you have a copy. Often when doing a long post it is your internet server that resets and causes the problem. I for one would like to hear your point so get typing!
I absolutely think when I first became interested in herps it was perfectly normal for herpetologists to study both in the field and in captivity. I will own up to keeping grass snakes as 'pets' but I bet I know more than most when and why they would use artificial refugia based on my captive observations, what triggers a feeding response etc etc. Which brings up a point that captive keeping can be for observation and understanding.
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Iowarth
Admin Group
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 743
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 4:37pm |
Not ignoring you Rob - Gemma has provided the answer. The problems, unfortunately, are almost always down to the PC, the connection, the ISP or the server. Although no forum software is perfect, that is usually the least likely. In my case the most common cause is my cat coming in and trying to type! . As Gemma says - have another go - I have no doubt your contribution will be worth the reading!
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Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
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AGILIS
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1689
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 7:51pm |
Yes I agree most of us are all ex keepers of animals at one time,but as the years go by you realise that you would not like to be banged up in the nick, so why should wild animals be expected to endure their lives in indoor vivariums that are to small and restrictive,but larger outdoor purpose built vivs that incorporate natural aspects are great for small lizards but not snakes that travel. keith
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LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID
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JaySteel
Senior Member
Joined: 07 May 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 157
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Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 9:10pm |
But captive-bred snakes have never 'travelled'. The life they lead is the only life that they have ever known so I'm sure that they are content. If they weren't content then they probably wouldn't even eat in captivity yet alone breed. And these 'larger outdoor purpose built vivs' when open for public viewing can generate huge public interest and public support for our wild herps. In order to get the public to care about our reptiles you have to get them to 'connect' with our reptiles. And the best way to do this is to allow the public to actually see the snakes in person. And in the case of non-venomous reptiles allowing our youth the opportunity to see and possibly even handle our native herps can help create future generations of herpetologists.
I can see your point Keith and I respect your opinions but I think there is a bigger picture to be looked at here. Personally I would much rather see a small number of reptiles in captivity if it helped to generate interest, knowledge and future conservation for all the other reptiles living in the wild. I'm not trying to argue or to convince you to see things from my point of view. I'm just hoping that you'll be able to understand why some of us are not against keeping reptiles in captivity and be able to accept that as a valid alternative view-point and opinion to your own.
Best regards, Jason
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herpetologic2
Forum Coordinator
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1511
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Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 10:12am |
I am wondering why Northern Venom has only joined recently when he has obviously previously posted on RAUK before - it may be enlightening to find those previous posts.....
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AGILIS
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1689
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Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 1:23pm |
Jason My real hate of captivity is more down to the type size dwellings that animals are kept in , ie 2 foot long dragons & Iguanas in 4foot vivs that just about cater for common lizards, as I said I used to keep sand lizards commons and green lizards years ago and I dont think my tanks were big enough. keith
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LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID
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kevinb
Senior Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 259
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Posted: 13 Jan 2012 at 5:22pm |
If one looks at other forums then it is obvious who Northern venom is.
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