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Robert V 
Senior Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1264
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 Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 6:11pm |
What's all this PM ing business???
What's so secretive? If you have captive bred Adders, there is no reason whatsoever that the newly hatched can't be placed into the wild again. If you've ordered four, why can't you let those four go?
R
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RobV
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Robert V
Senior Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1264
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Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 6:15pm |
And by hatched, I mean, live borne, before the tide of derision floods in! 
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RobV
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Northern Venom
Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 25
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Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 6:28pm |
 Robert V wrote:
What's all this PM ing business???
What's so secretive? If you have captive bred Adders, there is no reason whatsoever that the newly hatched can't be placed into the wild again. If you've ordered four, why can't you let those four go?
R |
Ok so you are stating that it is acceptable to release captive bred Adders into the wild with no exact location where the original breeding stock originated from? Surely I would need to do surveys to establish an existing population and then determine whether there was sufficient carrying capacity for additional animals (prey items) and determine any pre-existing hibernacula and so on. If someone just goes and places them in any old area that looks ok is that acceptable to you? How are they going to find a suitable hibernacula?
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Paul Hudson
Senior Member
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 98
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Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 6:55pm |
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Hang on a minute chaps, Do we know the adders in question Country of origin?? .Where do you suggest they should be released? into an existing population? onto a new site with no population? I'm thinking along the lines of disease risk and possibly unfavourable genetic mixing?
Edited by Paul Hudson - 03 Jan 2012 at 7:10pm
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Paul Hudson
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Northern Venom
Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 25
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Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 7:45pm |
Paul Hudson wrote:
Hang on a minute chaps, Do we know the adders in question Country of origin?? .Where do you suggest they should be released? into an existing population? onto a new site with no population? I'm thinking along the lines of disease risk and possibly unfavourable genetic mixing?
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my point exactly
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Iowarth
Admin Group
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 743
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Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 10:20pm |
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Very valid points from Paul. The only adders I am aware of that have been offered for sale are (legal) imports from non-EU countries. Certainly, releasing these into the wild would be totally irresponsible.
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Chris Davis, Site Administrator
Co-ordinator, Sand Lizard Captive Breeding Programme (RETIRED)
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Paul Hudson
Senior Member
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 98
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Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 11:02pm |
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Just for interest then Northern Venom would you kindly tell us how you obtained the adders?? are they British animals?
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Paul Hudson
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AGILIS
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1689
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Posted: 04 Jan 2012 at 8:16am |
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I think most of us on this site regard captive breeding as a means of giving the declining species a better chance of survival and re establishing sites that have had serious past declines ,by safe captive breeding and then released back into the wild ,as Chris and his team do....Not breed and keep for ever in captivity as ornaments for photography.Sorry but thats how I think and I am sure many members do .Keith
Edited by AGILIS - 04 Jan 2012 at 8:18am
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LOCAL ICYNICAL CELTIC ECO WARRIOR AND FAILED DRUID
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Robert V
Senior Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1264
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Posted: 04 Jan 2012 at 5:08pm |
Hi all,
I think you have misconstrued what I'm saying.
You have captive Adders which look well kept /cared for.
But you said you had four more on order. I assumed that you must know the breeder, therefore know the history, therefore know the back ground of the snakes.
I'm not saying release foreign snakes into the UK, of course not!! I'm not even saying you "should" or "shouldn't" do anyhting - what I'm saying is that if they are UK snakes, then IF they have neos, why can't the neos be released into a site that can support Adders?
I agree with Keith, a captive breeding programme is only of any value if the neos can be released back into the wild, otherwise what's the point?
I can't see any argument in that really, at least not for the RAUK site.
R
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RobV
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JaySteel
Senior Member
Joined: 07 May 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 157
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Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 5:56pm |
We should all remember that keeping adders in the UK is totally legal as long as the keeper has a current DWA licence. I'm certainly not condoning taking adders from the wild. On the contrary, I would be very much against such actions even if they are not breaking any laws by doing so. Obviously this depends where they were taken from.
I think it's a little harsh and judgemental to question why this person has these adders if he's not intending to release them into the wild at some stage. Unless people are against keeping any animals as pets then I think that we should live and let live. We all have the best interests of the adders at heart but it is a person's right in the UK to keep captive-bred snakes as pets as long as they comply with all the local laws. As for the question of morality, I think as long as the snakes are well kept by someone with good knowledge and understanding of the snakes needs and requirements and the snakes are sought from captive-bred stock then I personally don't see the problem. Allowing reptile breeders to keep and breed these snakes could be advantageous to wild populations in the future too. If there is a plentiful supply of these snakes in the reptile trade through captive breeding then there will be no market for wild caught specimens which has to be a good thing. And who knows, with the rate of decline at the moment it may be necessary at some point for release programs to turn to these breeders for snakes to release.
In this case Northern Venom is a knowledgeable and responsible keeper who is more than qualified to care for these snakes properly. He works professionally and successfully with wild adders and cares greatly for our native populations. His adders were sourced from a legitimate breeder and what he does with any neonates that he manages to successfully breed is his prerogative.
I can fully understand and appreciate that not everyone will always be totally happy with any snakes being kept as pets but lets all remember that we are on the same side here. We all care about our British herpetafauna and we need to avoid disharmony between ourselves.
Best regards to all, Jason
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